Not many people into airguns?
- Thread starter bigHUN
- Start date
I am a large volume shooter, gun club only. Mostly centerfire folks around me I need 3 levels of ear protection. But a good thing they mostly just sitting a good half an hour between two shots to "cool down the barrel", if I can recall they maybe shot a dozen a whole afternoon, and me done with couple hundred shots in two hours
So back to the Q...
The .25 cal is a very good walk around calibre, can do target shooting to 100 and hunting as well...a comfortable every day calibre, widely available and not so expensive. The JSB old style 34gn MK1 is still winning over the MK2.
But when we start paying attention from a competition scoring perspective where every point matters, the .30 cal pellet mass is a overall winner @ 100. But the .30 cal is not always and everywhere available and the cost ads up if large volume shooting like myself.
So the heaviest pellet is a winner up to 100-130 meters and beyond just loosing the momentum.
Now, when we translate the weight to slugs, the .22 cal slugs winning up to 200-280 meters, over the other calibers.
Because the heavy .22 slugs are longer... the BC is always higher with longer projectiles, and the pointed slugs keeping inline for longer.
This much I know and I am far from experts. Unfortunately there is no better school for brainstorming other then club level competitions... where we in our homeland running behind a big time with airguns.
Reading on the BFTA and CFSTA pages about FT (Field Target) and HFT (Hunting Field Target). Similar disciplines but somewhat different in how the course is shot and set up. Both are limited to sub 12fpe from what I understand so depending on the pellet mass shot, velocities are only in the 400-650 fps range. If I understood correctly, HFT shoots a max of 2 pellets at a target if the first one misses, while FT only shoots one but there may be two targets on a lane. A semi-auto style PCP would be totally pointless and, in fact, detrimental. Targets are set at various, unknown to the shooter(?) ranges and positions from 10 and up to 55m(?) with varying diameter 'hit' regions of 10-40mm diameter which triggers the target to 'fall'. If a pellet hits outside of that, the target won't fall and it is considered a miss. Points are scored depending on the shooter's position (some positions are mandatory prone, sitting, kneeling, standing, supported or unsupported, etc), the diameter of the 'target', the distance to the target, and the position of the target. There are some finer details relating to fixed scope settings throughout the course competition, no rangefinders, etc as well, but that is sort of a mish mash of the two merged into a reader's digest version. Don't quote me on any of that, it is just what I remembered from reading about it a few hours ago. There is lots of detailed info online.
FPE is a far better method of measuring a pellet rifle's energy and the 12 FPE restrictions based upon that are ideal for competition. One can choose a low mass pellet which has a much higher velocity and therefore a flatter trajectory at the expense of variable winds which can created havoc for a light projectile. Of course, one could choose a heavier pellet at a much lower velocity resulting in the same 12FPE which will buck winds somewhat better, but will also result in a significantly higher parabolic 'loopy' trajectory which will then require significant experience in estimating the distance correctly and resulting holdover/under to the target accurately.
And yes, just how does one decide on a 495fps velocity when such velocity depends upon the mass of the pellet? It would be nice if we could follow the rest of the FT/HFT world and use FPE as a basis.
The rifle that interest me are in the close to 3K. Add a good compressor and a carbon fiber tank - it end up in the 4k -4.5k range easy.
A firearms will keep a good chuck of it’s value..a air rifle not much.
So I canned the idea… I like them but too much $.
A firearms will keep a good chuck of it’s value..a air rifle not much.
So I canned the idea… I like them but too much $.
Too expensive.
If they were less expensive I'd be all over it. I have quite a few cheap airguns for shooting around the yard, but high end airguns that shoot fast and heavy are far, far too expensive. If I was prepared to drop $4k on a new smallbore shooter, I'd just get a nice Anschutz before I'd buy a fancy pellet gun.
If they were less expensive I'd be all over it. I have quite a few cheap airguns for shooting around the yard, but high end airguns that shoot fast and heavy are far, far too expensive. If I was prepared to drop $4k on a new smallbore shooter, I'd just get a nice Anschutz before I'd buy a fancy pellet gun.
Like with any sport or hobby if you wanna be serious it will cost you.
I remember my archery years, a practice or training for competition was easy a thousand arrows shot every week. Shot the same arrows for years and just adding a dozen ones in a while.
With airguns as well, if you have a good range where you shoot, a 2-300 shots a day goes fast. On yearly level you reach to 10K shots very easy.
What is a cost for 10K shots with airgun vs with rimfire? Centerfire you also start counting your barrels replaced.
In my .25 cal liner I have well over 30K shots, maybe 15K in .22 barrel and still have a long way to go.
Yes, shooting sports are expensive, but again further you go air is cheaper ...
I remember my archery years, a practice or training for competition was easy a thousand arrows shot every week. Shot the same arrows for years and just adding a dozen ones in a while.
With airguns as well, if you have a good range where you shoot, a 2-300 shots a day goes fast. On yearly level you reach to 10K shots very easy.
What is a cost for 10K shots with airgun vs with rimfire? Centerfire you also start counting your barrels replaced.
In my .25 cal liner I have well over 30K shots, maybe 15K in .22 barrel and still have a long way to go.
Yes, shooting sports are expensive, but again further you go air is cheaper ...
I could see this being true if I had the ability and desire to spend that much time at the range. Even if I had that much time, im not sure I'd want to spend that much of it lobbing pellets at the range though. I much prefer shooting pellet guns in the yard. As it is I go through about 3-4000 .22 pellets backyard shooting in a year. When I go to the range, I want the powder boom. I like bullets more than pellets at the end of the day.
To each their own though. I understand why people are into them, I just think the cost of entry into the sport is too high, and doesn't achieve much that my rimfires don't do better, performance wise.
Dunno. I pop open the gunsafe and the first one I see is my 6.5CM. Stock was $1600, action $1100, trigger $450, barrel $800, bottom metal $200, smithing $400, brake $300. You know, pretty soon this thing is going to start adding up to some serious money. Range average once every two weeks on a yearly basis with 50-150+ rounds of my reloaded ammo another $150-400 because I only get 15-20 reloads out of my brass so it eventually has to get replaced too. On top of that there is all the reloading gear required, fuel to the range and back an hour and a half each way because shooting bench centerfire at anything less than 300m is a total waste of time and money in my books for me. And, it is almost due for another barrel so I have to budget in another $1250 or so for that soon.
And yes, I have an Annie too, and she is a fun target rifle, but decent .22 ammo such as RWS, Eley, Lapua, and SK isn't exactly cheap either. After a lot of testing, mine detests all RWS, isn't too happy with most Eley, strongly prefers SK Flatnose Match at up to 50m, SK Rifle Match from 50-100m, and Lapua Midas+ from 50 to 150m. She doesn't get fed Midas+ very often. I haven't found anything she likes at over 150m and I think it is just a waste of time and money trying now. Note that this is my Annie. I know of other Annie's which prefer some of the other brands of ammo mine doesn't like. You have to test them all out. I also have other .22s which are not nearly as accurate but are far less picky about what they eat.
So, $3.5-5k for a high end pellet rifle, CF tank, and compressor sounds A-OK for me. Overall it will be reasonably cheap considering I spend more than that on reloading components and fuel going back and forth to the outdoor range, which I won't have to do with the pellet rifle(s). It all depends on your budget and comfort level.
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I mean, there you go, you're a perfect contender to run a high end airgun. But I think you're probably in the minority of shooters who has that level of committment and time to spend on the sport. And I get it, they are pretty cool and do have a place.
But as to why there isn't a lot more people getting into it, it's the high startup cost, and the fact that, for me personally, I like the experience of bullets popping off. I like playing with real guns.
When I get to a 100 meter bench and setup my gun, and when I look through the scope I see the ring only. I really don't care if this is an air rifle or a rimfire or a centerfire, I am looking at the ring.
Pulling a trigger and watching it fly and hits somewhere there in a ring. And the mental game starts... why it hit the center or why it did not hit the center.
The good thing is, with my high-end PCP (FX Impact for example) I can brainstorm right there at the bench... turning knobs - increasing or decreasing power - shortening Dwell - trying to find that magic RPM for the given Twist Rate I chose the barrel for that day.... a same game that you would brainstorm at home when calculating your reloading amo ....
When looking through the scope and tipping the trigger - I am shooting , regardless what gun is it.
The price of the game? Nothing is inexpensive these days if you want to deep dive into any serious hobby.
Pulling a trigger and watching it fly and hits somewhere there in a ring. And the mental game starts... why it hit the center or why it did not hit the center.
The good thing is, with my high-end PCP (FX Impact for example) I can brainstorm right there at the bench... turning knobs - increasing or decreasing power - shortening Dwell - trying to find that magic RPM for the given Twist Rate I chose the barrel for that day.... a same game that you would brainstorm at home when calculating your reloading amo ....
When looking through the scope and tipping the trigger - I am shooting , regardless what gun is it.
The price of the game? Nothing is inexpensive these days if you want to deep dive into any serious hobby.
First-off, I have nothing against any shooting discipline=fun/challenge is where you make it. Someone once said to me; "a motorboat and a canoe will both get you across the lake, just depends what you want out of the experience".
Airguns are what got me into the shooting sports, being left alone with an old .177 Chinese model 61 springer and a tin of pellets as a kid @ the cottage in the 70s. Amazing that I got through those years with both eyes. Along came others, an eastern European springer pistol that was nearly shot-out, a 1377, a 357-6, a bunch of garbage CO2 pistols, a DROZD I spent too much on, etc. Decades later, hunting groundhogs in Ontario, began to get questions about dealing with barn pigeons..and it sparked my interest in air rifles again.
Now, I have as much affection for air rifles as I do my Estwing hammer=meaning, zero love...but when you need a hammer..you need a hammer. I thought I got it right by keeping things simple, Diana .177 springer (first a compact, then a Diana 24) and realized .177 didn't crunch them up as well. Then a non-PAL Diana in .22. Didn't love any of them, and none shot well from improvised rests and always at varying distances. Just couldn't shoot them well. Ended-up trying a tuned QB-79 in 22 and should have just kept that. Bowled-over pigeons without issue, and an easy gun to shoot well provided the temps stayed over about 15C. Of course, I had to complicate thing by getting it converted to HPA...and ultimately sold it.
Tried another 2240, tried a QB-78D, tried to find another '79....and bought a PAL-rated Crosman 392 used. That one had issues out of the gate (Excessive pumping effort) and is going in for service while I contemplate a '79 build again.
So, for me, I know that if I throw enough $, energy and mental space at this issue...I'd end-up with a great/accurate/consistent PCP rifle. Issue is, when you get to that amount of money and noise, it's hard for me to make a case for the end result being an airgun. My dream airgun is light, .22 cal, PAL-rated (600fps-ish), consistent shot-to-shot, I can leave it in the car on a hot day, @/around $200.
Should have kept the QB. lol
Airguns are what got me into the shooting sports, being left alone with an old .177 Chinese model 61 springer and a tin of pellets as a kid @ the cottage in the 70s. Amazing that I got through those years with both eyes. Along came others, an eastern European springer pistol that was nearly shot-out, a 1377, a 357-6, a bunch of garbage CO2 pistols, a DROZD I spent too much on, etc. Decades later, hunting groundhogs in Ontario, began to get questions about dealing with barn pigeons..and it sparked my interest in air rifles again.
Now, I have as much affection for air rifles as I do my Estwing hammer=meaning, zero love...but when you need a hammer..you need a hammer. I thought I got it right by keeping things simple, Diana .177 springer (first a compact, then a Diana 24) and realized .177 didn't crunch them up as well. Then a non-PAL Diana in .22. Didn't love any of them, and none shot well from improvised rests and always at varying distances. Just couldn't shoot them well. Ended-up trying a tuned QB-79 in 22 and should have just kept that. Bowled-over pigeons without issue, and an easy gun to shoot well provided the temps stayed over about 15C. Of course, I had to complicate thing by getting it converted to HPA...and ultimately sold it.
Tried another 2240, tried a QB-78D, tried to find another '79....and bought a PAL-rated Crosman 392 used. That one had issues out of the gate (Excessive pumping effort) and is going in for service while I contemplate a '79 build again.
So, for me, I know that if I throw enough $, energy and mental space at this issue...I'd end-up with a great/accurate/consistent PCP rifle. Issue is, when you get to that amount of money and noise, it's hard for me to make a case for the end result being an airgun. My dream airgun is light, .22 cal, PAL-rated (600fps-ish), consistent shot-to-shot, I can leave it in the car on a hot day, @/around $200.
Should have kept the QB. lol
Why not a crosman 362? I absolutely LOVE mine. Ive put close to 5000 pellets through it and it hits as hard as I could want it to. 3 pumps for targets, 8 pumps and it's lethal at 6-700 fps in .22. MUCH easier to pump than the 392. For $50 you can put a steel breech on it to mount a scope to.
I did have to make one minor modification to make it really accurate. It's fairly accurate otb, but eliminating the front barrel retainer made it extremely accurate.
I was big into airguns and got into shooting that way. To me, living in the city, airguns have 2 main benefits over powder... 1) you can shoot indoors, 2) in most other parts of the world where silencers are legal, they can be shot outside more quietly and safely than, say, a .22. Since silencers are illegal here, I personally don't see much point in owning a high-power PCP... rimfires are much less complex, need less peripheral gear, are less bulky, and good to high quality pieces don't cost as much. I've been tempted over the years with higher powered PCP's but couldn't justify one over, say, a CZ or Anschutz for outdoor range use.
Now this means for indoor shooting, you're ideally looking at a lower powered airgun or maybe up to a moderately powered springer. The modern airgun market is obsessed with power, often for the lowest dollar and most aren't interested in quality... especially in areas where real firearms aren't banned / difficult to get. So, options there are limited and nothing new has piqued my interest in the last decade at least.
Now this means for indoor shooting, you're ideally looking at a lower powered airgun or maybe up to a moderately powered springer. The modern airgun market is obsessed with power, often for the lowest dollar and most aren't interested in quality... especially in areas where real firearms aren't banned / difficult to get. So, options there are limited and nothing new has piqued my interest in the last decade at least.
One thing I've found about low-cost/power springers is that the weaker spring allows 'easier' accuracy due to lower recoil. I also have a 1322 var-pump that's quite accurate and just bought an Artemis CP-1 COs pistol - that's Non-PAL - also v-accurate for low-cost.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I honestly think the reason its not as popular. Is the fact that there was a registry. Canada considers airguns firearms. Legally you can only discharge them where you can discharge a firearm. Though it's one of those things that people go meh, just an airgun but you got the stickler for the rules..Techically I cannot discharge a firearm including an airgun other than approved range, due to stupid NS hunting rules. They think if you are not shooting on an approved range, you are hunting. I didnt buy any pal rated airguns when there was a registry. And most pal rated airguns are double the cost than the states.
But like others said, lack of suppressors, 2000 psi of escaping air is loud.
I've tried to get NS to change the hunting regs to allow airguns for small game, and they still think people are going to hunt with a red ryder.
But like others said, lack of suppressors, 2000 psi of escaping air is loud.
I've tried to get NS to change the hunting regs to allow airguns for small game, and they still think people are going to hunt with a red ryder.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
Why all the talk on pneumatic airguns that will set you back 3-4 thousand $?
Springers are airguns too, and you can get into high end springers like HW97s for less than a grand, with nothing to do but #### and shoot.
Springers are airguns too, and you can get into high end springers like HW97s for less than a grand, with nothing to do but #### and shoot.
With the right tuning, a PCP can be surprisingly quiet while remaining legal in Canada - no muzzle device required. However, it does require a lot of trial and error to arrive at such a highly efficient setup that very little excess high pressure air is coming out of the barrel. I managed it with my Crosman 2260. I pump it up to 1,200psi, and get about 25 consistent shots averaging 586fps with 18.13gr JSB, 13.8fpe. Ending pressure at 500psi is where velocity starts falling too rapidly to be useful. Ranges between 580 and 593, so very consistent.
But this took many changes to the mechanism, addition of an SSG to control/adjust the hammer strike, grinding then smoothing out the hammer to about 1/2 original weight, valve and port changes, and just so many disassembly/adjust/assembly cycles to get it right. Now the thing is decidedly 'back yard friendly' and very enjoyable to shoot, without having to pump it too often. I learned a lot from Bob Sterne's published work. If someone is halfway decent with tools, and patient, such results can be achieved by the home hobbyist. Otherwise the 2260 can be a loud beast - as mine was when I bought it used, 'tuned' for a ridiculously powerful first shot around 29fpe, then the next 5 or 6 shots rapidly dropping to zero. Sounded like .22lr.
But this took many changes to the mechanism, addition of an SSG to control/adjust the hammer strike, grinding then smoothing out the hammer to about 1/2 original weight, valve and port changes, and just so many disassembly/adjust/assembly cycles to get it right. Now the thing is decidedly 'back yard friendly' and very enjoyable to shoot, without having to pump it too often. I learned a lot from Bob Sterne's published work. If someone is halfway decent with tools, and patient, such results can be achieved by the home hobbyist. Otherwise the 2260 can be a loud beast - as mine was when I bought it used, 'tuned' for a ridiculously powerful first shot around 29fpe, then the next 5 or 6 shots rapidly dropping to zero. Sounded like .22lr.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
But a design that is one of the most difficult airguns to shoot accurately. You cannot shoot them the same as a rimfire, or any other airgun.
They require a totally different hold. 20 yards my Benjamin Summit would do 1.5", my Daisy SSP 953, under 3/4".
This is why I like multi-pump pneumatics so much. The 362 I use a lot can hit 700 or so FPS in .22, but it weighs something like 4 pounds, has no spring to go thwang, no Co2 cans or air pumps necessary. 1322 is the same but maxes out around 495 FPS. Both are incredibly accurate, easily 3/4" groups at 20m from a bench for the 362.
