Notice to S&W M&P 15-22 Rifle Owners
- Thread starter Questar
- Start date
I won't even bother to argue the rest of your twisted versions of my statements... but I would like to question the outright false statement you made above.
Please show me where in any of my posts I stated:
A police agency can make an extra-legal, or possibly illegal, demand (and one which can prove nothing, as noted above) and we should comply or expect the door to be broken down at midnight.
You state that I said these things... but I can't find anywhere that I posted anything about "a police agency can make an extra-legal, or possibly illegal deman..." nor did I say anything to the effect that you could "expect the door to be broken down at midnight". Those are your words not mine. Please don't twist my words into something they did not say and did not intend to say.
Mark
For those worried, I suspect that the following scenario will play out...
For those who currently own M&P 15-22's and who HAVE NOT "officially" sorted out the magazine business, their names will trigger in the registry whenever a transfer or anything firearms related is attempted. It will be a nuisance thing until it comes time to renew your license in which case you probably want to make sure you've gotten it sorted out.
Basically, any/all future gun dealings will be "stalled" until the mags have been verified-destroyed or verified-pinned. I wouldn't be surprised if owners could just call in and say they already destroyed them (that's probably good enough). But, if you were ever caught with them afterwards... that wouldn't be good.
So yeah, IMO that'd be the easiest way to police this. It now turns a major job into an easy one by being a major inconvenience for the owner... one the owner must resolve.
Interested to see the end result.
For those who currently own M&P 15-22's and who HAVE NOT "officially" sorted out the magazine business, their names will trigger in the registry whenever a transfer or anything firearms related is attempted. It will be a nuisance thing until it comes time to renew your license in which case you probably want to make sure you've gotten it sorted out.
Basically, any/all future gun dealings will be "stalled" until the mags have been verified-destroyed or verified-pinned. I wouldn't be surprised if owners could just call in and say they already destroyed them (that's probably good enough). But, if you were ever caught with them afterwards... that wouldn't be good.
So yeah, IMO that'd be the easiest way to police this. It now turns a major job into an easy one by being a major inconvenience for the owner... one the owner must resolve.
Interested to see the end result.
That is an interesting point of view. It implies that no determination of classification by the RCMP is necessary. Classification status exists as a sort of absolute Platonic reality. All that's required is that every citizen be aware of the entire body of firearms law, the existence of every firearm in the world and the intentions of their designers, and the status of the importation and distribution of said firearms in Canada. North Sylva should have known that in the future S&W would produce a pistol, thus rendering the 25 rnd mags illegal. One wonders why we need the RCMP classifiers at all to tell us these things.
Getting back to planet Earth for a minute, either the pistol existed when the rifle was classified or it did not. If not, then the mag was not "always legally a prohibited device." If it did, then the RCMP was remiss in not declaring it prohibited from the start. In either case, owners are not at fault but we are left holding the bag.
Since you ask, your words below. Mine were only a minor restatement (perhaps you're suggesting that having our homes torn apart in the day time would be less traumatic):
"While the RCMP may not have legal grounds for "forcing" Person "X" to send a copy of the evidence tag showing the magazine was turned into police for destruction, they would have grounds, (based on the previous information and their "belief" that Person "X" still has possession of the Prohibited Magazine) to obtain a warrant to search Person "X's" home, etc. for the Prohibited Magazine or evidence thereof.
So... RCMP come to your door with a warrant and tear your place apart looking for a magazine that may or may not exist... when all you needed to do to avoid that was supply them the evidence tag? Who knows what else the "find" while doing their search?"
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
I agree with Mark, no determination by RCMP is necessary, contrary to this Americanism that the police are "law enforcement officers" they are in fact no such thing, they are civilians with additional powers of arrest.
The courts enforce the law, at the end of the day the courts interpret the law.
This is part of why imo the CFC is on dodgy legal ground making demands for proof of compliance, because it is their opinion that they are prohibited devices. I happen to agree they're probably right that they are, but the point is they didn't think so when they started issuing registrations (otherwise they wouldn't have issued them), and they're asking people to go down the police station to have them "verified" by the police.
That isn't legal for several reasons. I can't see any legal authority to maintain a registry of magazines, I can't see any legal authority to ask for them to be verified, the letter is clearly threatening prosecution so all the rules of criminal law apply, e.g. the right to remain silent.
Legally all they can do is say, "hey, you've got one of these guns, did you know we think the magazines are prohibited? If you agree with us you should dispose of them or have them modified. Have a nice day."
That's it. Which would have been perfectly reasonable.
Chuckbuster
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
In a nutshell, that's how I think they should have handled it. That's how they dealt with all of the other now overcapacity mags that were in circulation (literally untold thousands, if not millions) at the introduction of these magazine capacity restriction rules.
That they did not, and are coming after people, and with a barely disguised zeal for criminal prosecution, is maddening.
what was the CFO email?
This is true only in an abstract and largely immaterial sense. Parliament makes the laws, the RCMP administers them. Practically speaking, their classification decisions control the importation, sale, storage and use of any items not specifically identified in the regulations.
The AR15, for example, is clearly listed as a restricted firearm in the regs. "Variants" are also restricted. But since the law provides no definition of "variant", in every individual case the RCMP makes a determination based on their own criteria that effectively has the force of law. The 15-22 magazines exist in that legally fuzzy area, the classification depending on the equally ambiguous concept of "designed for." Only a court case or a clarification of the regulations by Cabinet could overturn their decision.
But this is all hair splitting and somewhat OT. We all agree (except possibly Mark) that the RCMP fumbled the ball then resorted to a heavy handed threat and a flawed verification process to try to recover it. There are related issues that I've mentioned elsewhere (e.g. the compensation question.) All of these things should be pursued at the political level.
On the letter I received, I wrote in RED CRAYON "Magazines modified to comply with existing regulations" and "Stop threatening me" and mailed it back!
I actually shortened mine, they were too long for proper prone shoot practice!
Scott
I actually shortened mine, they were too long for proper prone shoot practice!
Scott
That's simply not correct and just goes to show how poorly trained and un-informed the people who answer phones at the registry actually are.
There are M&P 15-22 Pistol in Canada (100% sure) because we ourselves imported and sold a small number of them when they first came out last year and it was my understanding that at least 1 other importer brought some in as well. I don't know how many there are in total but I do know that the above statement that there are none is simply not correct.
Mark
I went to North Silva today who is the registered importer of S&W ,pretty decent bunch
exchanged mag for pinned one bought another $28 bucks was told there were 10 handguns brought here under the grey market which caused all this b.s.
p.s.anyone who is blowing extractors on these rifles there is video on you tube for bending extractor that worked like a charm on friends and mine, also jams are down to almost nothing now.
exchanged mag for pinned one bought another $28 bucks was told there were 10 handguns brought here under the grey market which caused all this b.s.
p.s.anyone who is blowing extractors on these rifles there is video on you tube for bending extractor that worked like a charm on friends and mine, also jams are down to almost nothing now.
That's an interesting number if accurate. I don't know what is meant by the "grey market", but CCC Regulation 3 (1)(b) deems any cartridge magazine prohibited
"that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada."
If only 10 guns were imported that would make the chances of any one individual in Canada being able to buy one about 1 in 3,400,000. Imagine if they weren't commonly available!
Interesting point.
Then again, the firearm in question is in current production by a major manufacturer, who has importers in Canada. The firearm is available to anyone who wants one. It is not as if the only possibility to get one was to find one of these ten.
I suppose its a matter of interpretation.
Given your, my, and the RCMP's opinion, I wonder which is likely going to have some weight to it?
The choices here are pretty basic.
Comply with the law or not.
Comply with the directive from the Register of Firearms or not.
There are now about 600 posts on this topic in different threads.
Try to do something about this and the way it is being handled, or froth and foam on the 'net.
The former might or might not accomplish anything; the latter won't.
Then again, the firearm in question is in current production by a major manufacturer, who has importers in Canada. The firearm is available to anyone who wants one. It is not as if the only possibility to get one was to find one of these ten.
I suppose its a matter of interpretation.
Given your, my, and the RCMP's opinion, I wonder which is likely going to have some weight to it?
The choices here are pretty basic.
Comply with the law or not.
Comply with the directive from the Register of Firearms or not.
There are now about 600 posts on this topic in different threads.
Try to do something about this and the way it is being handled, or froth and foam on the 'net.
The former might or might not accomplish anything; the latter won't.
Ahhh yes, seeking answers from the "gatekeepers." I know this mixed-feeling... shock, anger, amazement, frustration and sadness.
It truly is unbelievable.
I'd much rather hear "I don't know" than the obvious lies being spewed-out.
It's another example of the vague and poorly defined language of the regulations. There are many others, as you probably know. These soft spots should be contested by a gun org supported legal effort. Developing and proposing an entire reform of the firearms law would be better still. Maybe when Tony Bernardo returns from his next banquet he could give the matter some thought.
Personally I think people should comply with the directive but strongly protest the way the entire matter was handled.
I initiated a lengthy series of correspondence with Vic Toews on the compensation angle. More recently I sent a letter to Nicole Boucher (cc'd to various MPs and the PM) objecting to the threatening nature of her letter.
Posting here helps a little since it may familiarize some people with the issues and possibly motivate some to take action. But no citizen letters, unless they arrive by the thousands, is a substitute for systematic, organized lobbying.
