NR cz bren

[Karnage]

Yeah, but even de-registered, you can never really be sure that your NR rifle was removed from the gov't registry. Sure, you could lie about a tragic boating accident when they come fishing for it based on old registry data, but you can never risk bringing it into the light of day, let alone to the range or Crown Land. Catch-22.....

True, but at least it won't be bent in half and tossed into a smelter.

How many items of personal property do you have waiting against the wall for the signal? I know I have a significant amount, yours more so from what I've seen. Wouldn't you have prefered to admire them like stolen works of art or hand em in? Not that I'm advocating for such a thing... dewat anyone??

 

[6ohmoney]

Since when is 1 to 1.5 MOA 5-round groups @ 100m "Mediocre Accuracy"? That is what the R18 Mk2 is capable of with 169gr FGMM if you can do your part. You must have some awfully accurate semi-auto rifles to consider the production R18 Mk2 "Mediocre"......

Perhaps you are confusing my initial 2-part review of the "Pencil Barrelled" R18 Mk2 Test Rifle with the demonstrated accuracy potential of the heavier-barrelled Production version. The follow-on review can be found here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...369-Sterling-Arms-International-R18-Mk2-Redux!

Yes, the Production R18 Mk2 is heavier than the CZ Bren 2. It is also considerably more accurate than my 14" CZ Bren 2, which starts out as a 2 MOA rifle and quickly opens up to 4 MOA when hot. The R18's extra barrel weight was necessary to obtain the MOA accuracy expectations of many prospective buyers right here on CGN. Go look at the comments which following my initial review of the R18. It is what it is - you can't have your cake and eat it too! Limited Pencil Barrels are still apparently available from SAI for those who would prefer that option, bringing the weight of the complete R18 down to 7.9 lbs unloaded. That is mere ounces heavier than the Bren 2 with comparable accuracy potiential.

So, you can have your R18 Mk2 with a pencil barrel that provides CZ Bren 2 accuracy at very close to the same weight, or you can have the R18 with a barrel that consistently shoots 1-1.5 MOA, but at an extra weight penalty of 2.3 lbs. The choice is entirely yours, but what you CANNOT have is a lightweight R1 Mk 2 that shoots MOA. Sorry, but the laws of physics still apply to Sterling Arms International....

I have a few grey area builds that shoot a few lots of bulk ammo 1moa or better and will shoot 1.5 moa with AE or pmc bronze all day. What does the sterling shoot with say AE or pmc 55 grain bulk? Yes they did cost more but I am very happy with the result. Reading online I'm seeing the bren 2 with the 16 inch HB weighing 7.3 lbs from your review your rifle is 10.2 lbs dry, correct? Once again that is a factor I think of when purchasing a rifle. Would I bring my 7lb rdb that is 1/2 moa difference with cheap bulk ammo or sterling at 10lbs to do run and gun drills? Or walking into a place to call coyotes? I'd once again bring the rdb or a lightweight bolt action. The sterling would sit in the safe.....
Not saying it's a bad product and I haven't seen one personally but for me it doesn't have a use.

 

[Bartok5]

I have a few grey area builds that shoot a few lots of bulk ammo 1moa or better and will shoot 1.5 moa with AE or pmc bronze all day. What does the sterling shoot with say AE or pmc 55 grain bulk? Yes they did cost more but I am very happy with the result. Reading online I'm seeing the bren 2 with the 16 inch HB weighing 7.3 lbs from your review your rifle is 10.2 lbs dry, correct? Once again that is a factor I think of when purchasing a rifle. Would I bring my 7lb rdb that is 1/2 moa difference with cheap bulk ammo or sterling at 10lbs to do run and gun drills? Or walking into a place to call coyotes? I'd once again bring the rdb or a lightweight bolt action. The sterling would sit in the safe.....
Not saying it's a bad product and I haven't seen one personally but for me it doesn't have a use.

Then don't buy one. Easy decision for you, and I can't fault your reasoning.

The R18 Mk2 is clearly not suited to your desired purposes. Just as I said in my review on CGN, this is not a rifle for long walks in the woods. But for running and gunning in a 3-gun match with limited duration stages? It is just fine and more stable off-hand than most.

At the end of the day, you have to match the firearms characteristics to your intended use. If they don't align, you look elsewhere. In your case, you need something lighter, so you take a bolt-action for coyotes. Makes perfect sense to me. But that is not a negative reflection on the R18 - it is simply a disconnect between the rifle and your intended purpos(es) for it....

 

[6ohmoney]

Then don't buy one. Easy decision for you, and I can't fault your reasoning.

The R18 Mk2 is clearly not suited to your desired purposes. Just as I said in my review on CGN, this is not a rifle for long walks in the woods. But for running and gunning in a 3-gun match with limited duration stages? It is just fine and more stable off-hand than most.

At the end of the day, you have to match the firearms characteristics to your intended use. If they don't align, you look elsewhere. In your case, you need something lighter, so you take a bolt-action for coyotes. Makes perfect sense to me. But that is not a negative reflection on the R18 - it is simply a disconnect between the rifle and your intended purpos(es) for it....

Alright fanboy thanks for the tip. Pretty standard procedure when dropping that kinda money on a firearm. Also you forgot to answer my questions on what you seen for accuracy running various bulk ammo? I've had a lengthy conversation with TSE about it and also seen various people post on cgn. It's a 2-4 moa grouping rifle with AE,pmc bronze, or other bulk 55grain ammo. when your paying a $1200 premium over a Wk 180 gen 2 for accuracy and superior craftsmanship might be a kick in the nuts to people thinking they are getting that with their purchase as the wk 180 gen 2 also has similar groupings. TSE was very open and took the criticism like a true professional when we spoke. You can tell he only wants to improve on the product rather then push it out as fast as possible. That being said im sticking with it as having medicore accuracy until I see un biased range reports that prove me wrong.

 

[Bartok5]

Alright fanboy thanks for the tip. Pretty standard procedure when dropping that kinda money on a firearm. Also you forgot to answer my questions on what you seen for accuracy running various bulk ammo? I've had a lengthy conversation with TSE about it and also seen various people post on cgn. It's a 2-4 moa grouping rifle with AE,pmc bronze, or other bulk 55grain ammo. when your paying a $1200 premium over a Wk 180 gen 2 for accuracy and superior craftsmanship might be a kick in the nuts to people thinking they are getting that with their purchase as the wk 180 gen 2 also has similar groupings. TSE was very open and took the criticism like a true professional when we spoke. You can tell he only wants to improve on the product rather then push it out as fast as possible. That being said im sticking with it as having medicore accuracy until I see un biased range reports that prove me wrong.

You didn't have to be a snide knob in the first line of your response. It pretty much made me want to ignore everything that followed....

 

[6ohmoney]

You didn't have to be a snide knob in the first line of your response. It pretty much made me want to ignore everything that followed....

It prob works out better that way. Otherwise you'd just be contradicting yourself on having better accuracy over the wk180 or cz bren 2

 

[Bartok5]

It prob works out better that way. Otherwise you'd just be contradicting yourself on having better accuracy over the wk180 or cz bren 2

I have no idea what you are blathiering on about with your accusations of "contradictory" statements on my part. My statement concerning the revised, production R18 MK2's accuracy was straightforward and did not contain a direct comparison with the WK-180 as I have never fired one of those rifles and therefore have no experience with them. What I actually said was:

"....my 5-round groups with 69 Gr Federal Gold Medal Match were consistently 1.5 MOA or less. With 77 gr IVI OTM, I was getting 1.75 MOA or better. PMC 62 Gr "Green Tip" ammo produced consistent 2 MOA 5-round groups. Needless to say, the new Sterling Arms International (SAI) 1:8" Right-Twist Barrel with Wylde Chamber apparently did the trick insofar as improving the R18 Mk2's accuracy is concermed."..... " those who envision using their R18 for wildlife defence on long hikes in the woods may want to explore a lighter-weight option such as the similarly-priced Tavor X95. For those who cannot abide a Bullpup layout, the R18 Mk2 offers a compelling option at just under the $3K price-point. It combines mostly-ambidextrous AR15 Ergonomics with first-rate CNC-Billet machining to produce a handsome, handy and (now) accurate, semi-automatic, sporting and utility rifle that is currently unique to the Canadian market."

There was no accuracy comparison to the WK-180, and certainly no direct accuracy comparision with the Bren 2, so again - what the hell are you blatheriing on about? For the record however, I can tell you straight-up the R18 Mk2 is hands-down more accurate in its current production form than the Bren 2 iin 14" military configuration. The Bren 2 is one that I do own, so direct accuracy comparisions are possible. The 14" Bren 2 initially starts out as a 2 MOA rifle with both FGMM and bulk PMC, which rapidly opens up to 3 or 4 MOA when hot, which does not take long with the Bren 2's pencil Barrel. So yes, the R18 Mk2 is more intrinsically accurate than the Bren 2 - at least in the latter's 14" military configuration.

Any questions there, Mr "Know it All"??? Accuracy in commenting counts. If you spent less time trying to drag everone else down to your level and instead contributed accurate comments of value to the group, people might take what you have to say seriously. Unfortunately that is currently far from the case....

 

[jagermyster]

Ive talked to quite a few guys with the gen 2 wk180 and quite a few have had their guns break or parts come loose. Alot of broken pistons and some cracked the upper

 

[Ustauk]

Ive talked to quite a few guys with the gen 2 wk180 and quite a few have had their guns break or parts come loose. Alot of broken pistons and some cracked the upper

The cracked upper is a new one to me, and not a good sign. With Gen 2 of the rifle, loose, off centre gas blocks torquing and destroying pistons was a known issue in Gen 1 that should have been addressed, and it is disappointing to see re-occur. If Kodiak was unwilling or unable to increase their QA to ensure the gas block threads are staked or high temperature thread locked or at the very least properly torqued, they should have changed the piston design to something more robust and forgiving.

 

[shoota]

I have no idea what you are blathiering on about with your accusations of "contradictory" statements on my part. My statement concerning the revised, production R18 MK2's accuracy was straightforward and did not contain a direct comparison with the WK-180 as I have never fired one of those rifles and therefore have no experience with them. What I actually said was:

"....my 5-round groups with 69 Gr Federal Gold Medal Match were consistently 1.5 MOA or less. With 77 gr IVI OTM, I was getting 1.75 MOA or better. PMC 62 Gr "Green Tip" ammo produced consistent 2 MOA 5-round groups. Needless to say, the new Sterling Arms International (SAI) 1:8" Right-Twist Barrel with Wylde Chamber apparently did the trick insofar as improving the R18 Mk2's accuracy is concermed."..... " those who envision using their R18 for wildlife defence on long hikes in the woods may want to explore a lighter-weight option such as the similarly-priced Tavor X95. For those who cannot abide a Bullpup layout, the R18 Mk2 offers a compelling option at just under the $3K price-point. It combines mostly-ambidextrous AR15 Ergonomics with first-rate CNC-Billet machining to produce a handsome, handy and (now) accurate, semi-automatic, sporting and utility rifle that is currently unique to the Canadian market."

There was no accuracy comparison to the WK-180, and certainly no direct accuracy comparision with the Bren 2, so again - what the hell are you blatheriing on about? For the record however, I can tell you straight-up the R18 Mk2 is hands-down more accurate in its current production form than the Bren 2 iin 14" military configuration. The Bren 2 is one that I do own, so direct accuracy comparisions are possible. The 14" Bren 2 initially starts out as a 2 MOA rifle with both FGMM and bulk PMC, which rapidly opens up to 3 or 4 MOA when hot, which does not take long with the Bren 2's pencil Barrel. So yes, the R18 Mk2 is more intrinsically accurate than the Bren 2 - at least in the latter's 14" military configuration.

Any questions there, Mr "Know it All"??? Accuracy in commenting counts. If you spent less time trying to drag everone else down to your level and instead contributed accurate comments of value to the group, people might take what you have to say seriously. Unfortunately that is currently far from the case....

Accuracy circle jerk ensues again.

Guess what guys every semi auto 5.56 platform I have ever shot with bulk ammo which is basically most of what people shoot out of these guns has been 2-4 MOA this includes a couple AR's. If you are free floating/custom barrelling your rig with match ammo maybe you get better results. That's a maybe.

Everyone should be buying their semi-auto anti-liberal freedom stick based on their own budget, availability and desired features not trying to wait for something to have bolt action accuracy with bulk ammo.

 

[Horilka]

Accuracy is important if you buy your gun also for competition. This discussion about Bren accuracy is helpful. I was hoping for Bren to replace my evil AR15, but it looks it's not as good as run of the mill cheap M&P15.

 

[r34skyline]

Accuracy is important if you buy your gun also for competition. This discussion about Bren accuracy is helpful. I was hoping for Bren to replace my evil AR15, but it looks it's not as good as run of the mill cheap M&P15.

If you’re buying for a precision competition maybe. In which case why a semi auto at all? For 3 gun? It makes no practicable difference.

 

[Bartok5]

Accuracy circle jerk ensues again.

The manufacturer provides a lightweight rifle with 2-4 MOA accuracy from a pencil-weight Barrel. Everyone insists upon a 1 MOA rifle, so the manufacturer provides a heavy match Barrel. Then everyone complains about the rifle's weight!

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.....

 

[rugbydave]

The manufacturer provides a lightweight rifle with 2-4 MOA accuracy from a pencil-weight Barrel. Everyone insists upon a 1 MOA rifle, so the manufacturer provides a heavy match Barrel. Then everyone complains about the rifle's weight!

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.....

It's almost as if there is no free lunch and design compromises are a real thing

 

[Horilka]

If you’re buying for a precision competition maybe. In which case why a semi auto at all? For 3 gun? It makes no practicable difference.

I dont do precision (yet). For CQB, two -gun etc it still matters. When your mistakes got multiplied by inaccuracy of the gun. It's not like I'm asking for impossible. Quite outdated ar15 vs modern Bren and it fails to deliver reasonable accuracy (for a sporting rifle)?

 

[Bartok5]

I dont do precision (yet). For CQB, two -gun etc it still matters. When your mistakes got multiplied by inaccuracy of the gun. It's not like I'm asking for impossible. Quite outdated ar15 vs modern Bren and it fails to deliver reasonable accuracy (for a sporting rifle)?

That entirely depends upon your definition of "reasonable accuracy" for a sporting rifle. This is where the accuracy circle-jerk begins, with unreasonable accuracy expectations for a piston-operated design versus the intrinsically accurate, Direct-Impingement AR15. No piston rifle seems to do better than 2 MOA from a pencil Barrel, and accuracy declines as the pencil Barrel rapidly heats up. At the opposite end of the spectrum lies the heavy Barrel piston-rifle. Weight aside, we get the fabled 1-1.5 MOA results that please the accuracy sticklers. Byt the weight of said heavy barrel is a turn-off for many.

Perhaps somewhere in the middle lies the acceptable compromise which we may see in the 16" civilian Bren 2 Rifle with its medium-contour Barrel. I am very interested in hearing accuracy (and weight) results for that particular Bren 2 configuration.

Another acceptable solution for the R18 Mk2 may be a heavily-fluted heavy-Barrel to shave off some of the objectionable weight....

 

[shoota]

That entirely depends upon your definition of "reasonable accuracy" for a sporting rifle. This is where the accuracy circle-jerk begins, with unreasonable accuracy expectations for a piston-operated design versus the intrinsically accurate, Direct-Impingement AR15. No piston rifle seems to do better than 2 MOA from a pencil Barrel, and accuracy declines as the pencil Barrel rapidly heats up. At the opposite end of the spectrum lies the heavy Barrel piston-rifle. Weight aside, we get the fabled 1-1.5 MOA results that please the accuracy sticklers. Byt the weight of said heavy barrel is a turn-off for many.

Perhaps somewhere in the middle lies the acceptable compromise which we may see in the 16" civilian Bren 2 Rifle with its medium-contour Barrel. I am very interested in hearing accuracy (and weight) results for that particular Bren 2 configuration.

Another acceptable solution for the R18 Mk2 may be a heavily-fluted heavy-Barrel to shave off some of the objectionable weight....

Piston vs. DI I personally haven't seen a difference in either effecting accuracy.

 

[Horilka]

I also don't think it's "piston vs DI", not to mention that AR actually has hybrid system, which is not pure DI.
Anyway. My plastic-fantastic RDB is capable of 0.9MOA with heavy match ammo, and it's both piston and pencil barrel (and it's even not free-floated).
I actually don't mind heavy barrels, but barrel replacement and spare barrels availability aren't strong side of Bren platform either. Which Bren comes with heavy barrel, I thought none? it's just US 16" barrel is medium-contour.
Dunno, was hoping for better product, don't want to settle for expensive gun that doesn't tickle all my boxes, but it looks like our choices are very limited by our overlords.
R18 Mk2 is interesting platform, read your reviews with interest. I hope to see more feedback to make conclusions.

 

[powerbaitron]

I had prepaid entirely for my CZ and cancelled. 3.5K for something that may never come is not a risk I can afford…

 

[greentips]

Barrel weight is part of it. That is kinda like using brute force to counter wrapping and distortion to heat, but good heat treating mitigates the issue.

Heat treating quality and the rifling, as well as the "personalities" of barrels, matter a lot. Some barrel just won't shoot a certain type of ammo.

There is no difference between DI and push rod on average, for every CC gun that is better than a HK416, there is another HK416 that can outshoot a CC, at least from what I have seen so far. You can have one SS109 type ammo shoots 1MOA out of one HK, but the same ammo won't shoot anything resembling a group out of a CC, and vice versa.

Also accuracy tests by many only pay attention to 5 round group - in reality the rate of fire and 10 round min. are extremely important, statistically wise. Rate of fire generates heat, it tests the heat treating and the over all barrel / barrel trunnion/ Receiver design. Materials expand at different rates, that exploit any weakness in the design and material quality. Multiple 10 round groups actually allow you to see the system has zero wandering issue, and whether it goes back to the original POI after cooling down.

And these tier 1 guns like HK and CC with 0.7" to 0.85" barrel, they do work well under these tests.