OCW vs Ladder Test

Boomer686

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Got to get a good load worked up for my 338LM now that it's all done and siting in the new Cadex chassis.

So OCW or Ladder Test and why? (I've traditionally done the ladder test)

What are your preferences and findings if you have tried both?
 
I'm with Jerry I'm this. A chrony doesn't tell what you need.

If you want max velocity load up to it until you see signs of pressure then load back to the next tightest node. Tweak from there.
 
I have access to up to 1000m and intended on testing at 300m. The chrony is important for synching the ballistic software to real world in getting the most accurate dope possible albeit shooting the dope is something I still do anyways.

The ladder is what I traditionally use just reading more and more about OCW had me wondering.....
 
I always start with a ladder test. From that I'll identify loads that group well. I never change my scope zero during my ladders to I can take a look at OCW characteristics of a load that groups well. A stable load will show no change in POI with the ladder steps above and below. My last step is to chrono the load to set a proper drop table, low SD being a nice bonus here. Then begins the fine tuning with .1 grain jumps, seating depth tuning, neck tension consistency, etc...

So for me the perfect load will:
1- Group nicely on paper. (Ladder)
2- Have little to no change in POI with the loads below and over. (OCW)
3- Have a low SD. (Chrono)

Those are the things that matter to me, in that order, knowing full well that it's not always possible to have all 3.
 
Tagged.

FWIW, Jerry's method has worked well for developing loads for two rifles last summer/fall. (Developed at 200 yds mind you.:redface:) My son tried his load last week in preparation for this fall hunting, and accuracy is exactly as before in a + 20 c increase in ambient temp. I realize that may not be amazing for most, but for myself this indicates that the process outlined works well and provides repeatable results and in a manner quicker than I was able to do it before. *** edit That says something, I haven't been doing this that long. ***

I am now chasing a longer range recipe using SMKs. I am going to try a couple of ladder tests again, as an option and comparative to the above for load development. It will be more expensive but I get to spend more time at the range and time with my kid to boot. ;)

Aside...now with a magnetospeed, I've been recording results on all kinds of combinations to see cause and effects of powder/primer while fire forming operations at minimum loads. Results on paper rule, but man I've been getting headaches wondering if it's possible to rationalize good ES and SD numbers to results. Some correlate and some don't. As stated previously...chrono results good to sync for tables etc. for myself.

Regards
Ronr
 
Last edited:
Tagged.

FWIW, Jerry's method has worked well for developing loads for two rifles last summer/fall. (Developed at 200 yds mind you.:redface:) My son tried his load last week in preparation for this fall hunting, and accuracy is exactly as before in a + 20 c increase in ambient temp. I realize that may not be amazing for most, but for myself this indicates that the process outlined works well and provides repeatable results and in a manner quicker than I was able to do it before. *** edit That says something, I haven't been doing this that long. ***

I am now chasing a longer range recipe using SMKs. I am going to try a couple of ladder tests again, as an option and comparative to the above for load development. It will be more expensive but I get to spend more time at the range and time with my kid to boot. ;)

Aside...now with a magnetospeed, I've been recording results on all kinds of combinations to see cause and effects of powder/primer while fire forming operations at minimum loads. Results on paper rule, but man I've been getting headaches wondering if it's possible to rationalize good ES and SD numbers to results. Some correlate and some don't. As stated previously...chrono results good to sync for tables etc. for myself.

Regards
Ronr

Short answer... NO. Sorry... been there, tried it all. SD/ES onto itself will not confirm the performance of a load at LR.

Loads that shoot well at LR (prove on target at LR) will have decent/good SD/ES numbers...

BUT, having a load with good ES/SD numbers does not ensure good LR results.

Jerry
 
Short answer... NO. Sorry... been there, tried it all. SD/ES onto itself will not confirm the performance of a load at LR.

Loads that shoot well at LR (prove on target at LR) will have decent/good SD/ES numbers...

BUT, having a load with good ES/SD numbers does not ensure good LR results.

Jerry

Yes, right on the mark Jerry.

I'm patiently (take out the ' and the space) waiting to get out to the range again. My .223 is shooting superbly at 300m. I'm still working on finding the right load and bullet for the 6.5. I have two more fine tuning ladders ready to run, one with HRN 140gr BTHP and the other with HRN 147gr ELD-M. Another coarser ladder to shoot with Sierra 142gr BTHP. As you may recall, I like 5 shot group ladders instead of the 3 shot you do, but bottom line is that the process is identical to as you describe.
 
I used an OCW test this summer. Seemed ok, then I did a second one in the ranges where I thought looked the best. I am new to long range, but now have a load good out to 600 easily. I checked with my chrono and the ES was low or as low as my unit may register correctly. The load was developed in the summer heat, and last weekend was only +10C and I got first shot accurate hits out to 600. 1/2 MOA. I hope to get out and try 7-1000 yards soon, see if I can hit anything. My gong is only 18.5" square.
 
Short answer... NO. Sorry... been there, tried it all. SD/ES onto itself will not confirm the performance of a load at LR.

Loads that shoot well at LR (prove on target at LR) will have decent/good SD/ES numbers...

BUT, having a load with good ES/SD numbers does not ensure good LR results.

Jerry

Jerry, thanks for interpreting the post. You read between the lines and know exactly where I am at. I can get some sleep now after this lol. :d

Chrono results can provide/cause other strains of data to influence interpretation. Paper is king. Nice consistent messaging that is appreciated.

(One day I may post the target results coupled with the velocity measurements to show why this was such a conundrum before this answer.)

Regards
Ronr
 
Boomer686:

+1 to RangerPark. I use his exact methodology. I have used pure ladders and pure by the book OCW methodology previously. The round robin method used in the OCW test didn't work out for me as well as I'd hoped. They might work better if you are able to shoot the whole batch in zero or consistent wind, but unfortunately, that is not the case for me and I believe that skews the results enough to put questions in my interpretations. For me, shooting 3 shot groups in a ladder fashion without scope changes, then utilizing the POI and ES/SD information in conjunction had worked the best.

I would also echo that only the LR results matter. These methods just seem to help get there in an efficient manner.
 
Probably a repeat of some of the ideas discussed.

OCW / optimum charge weight, is one that is tolerant of minor variances in the the loaded round ...one to the next.

OBT / optimum barrel time in mS. this is found by varying powder charge weight. Quickload will do the math.

ES / extreme spread in velocity in a string of fire. Ideally single digit for long range.

Velocity, this is the bases of all calculations and must be accurate, LabRadar has an advertised accuracy of 0.1%.

Scope, must be one that tracks consistently and linearly, apply correction factor if necessary.

Bullets that are used that are not optimum for the twist rate, like a 200gr in a 1:11 T, 30 caliber barrel, the correction needs to applied in an effort to have your external ballistic chart to be accurate.

So, with good consistent reloading practices (neck tension being consistent, overall length being same same, weigh sorting of brass etc.), accurately measured powder, identifying if the powder used is either too fast or slow (this helps with the OCW as the deterrent chemicals should be used up at max chamber pressure) but strive for optimum.

The OBT will be found with powder charge proven by the velocity, letting Quickload doing the math.

By this method, which is easier than described, gets very good results with out doing a ladder and all the human,environmental variables that are associated with a ladder test.

My Savage LRP 260 Rem , stock rifle, Bushnell 6500, tactical shoots <0.6 moa (5 shots) at 320 yards.

No ladder!
 
Short answer... NO. Sorry... been there, tried it all. SD/ES onto itself will not confirm the performance of a load at LR.

Loads that shoot well at LR (prove on target at LR) will have decent/good SD/ES numbers...

BUT, having a load with good ES/SD numbers does not ensure good LR results.

Jerry

I've had a very long discussion with many people regarding this. There's a case to be made from both sides of Ladder test and loading Statistics ES and SD.

Jerry don't know if you've been following Adam MacDonalds (Auto Trickler) Blogs but in his article about statistics and his load development it would point to the contrary. Basically (I may be generalizing his work) that giving enough rounds are put down range that have LO SD is proof and should give you confidence that it will be good down range. Considering his results at the Worlds and National it may provides some validity to his findings. His statistic blogs and the details he goes into is just to much for my mind to understand. He's a very bright and smart in my books.

I quote from his latest blog "Most people would look at the groups above and say that's terrible, there's no way it could work well at long range. In fact, that's not true. Since my chrono is capable of measuring it, I know the SD is very low, and this tells me the groups are going to stay pretty much the same size as they travel to 900 meters.

If you are able to understand a load in terms of dispersion and velocity independently, then you can completely predict its performance at any distance." Also he states "It's not one hole. It doesn't have to be. As long as these groups are repeatable, with the incredibly low SD, I know that group will maintain at long range. In any case, it's the best I have so far.

If you can fire 40 shots within 1/2" at 100 yards, and the SD is 5.0 or better, with a good bullet, you have a load capable of winning the F-class world championship. That's all I needed to see." End Quote.

I believe all his load testing is done at 100 yards. As for myself it's a combination of all three OCW, vertical testing and statistics.
 
I always did the ladder test and guess based on this info I will stick to it. I will modify it a bit as per the article linked by Mystic (thanks Jerry). No doubt I'll be bugging you again in the future.
 
I have had mixed results with ladder testing at 300m but OCW has worked very well for me. Depends what you're looking to do as 100m loads won't necessarily perform the same way downrange. That said, I successfully connected at 1000m with a brand new OCW load on my last range trip.

Do them both, it's all in good fun and you'll be using those components either way.
 
Ultimately, I use a combination of both.

First I will try to identify a safe range of available charge weights for the powder and bullet I have chosen by consulting at least 3 reputable sources. I will average the minimum and maximum safe load, and use that as a baseline. Using the maximum safe load as a 100% value, I will then load a single round at the 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 100, 102, 104 and 106% charge weights. 106% may seem high, but I have routinely been able to go north of 110% of published maximums without detecting pressure signs at normal conditions, but I have rarely found a usable accuracy node past 105%.

I will then use these single shots of each charge weight to determine what my ACTUAL maximum pressure is. I will fire them in a single ladder test pattern at 300m, max range I regularly have available. I will note any accuracy nodes that this test reveals, but I have found only a weak correlation between accuracy nodes using the ladder test vs ocw, but I find the OCW results translate to far better accuracy at long range shooting.

I will then recalibrate my minimum and maximum safe load based on actual data from the range, and conduct essentially an OCW test, except I will load 4 shots of each charge weight at 95, 95.7, 96.4, 97.1, 97.8, 98.5, 99.2, 99.9% of my maximum charge. I find 4 shot groups are a much more reliable sample size than 3, which gives me an added buffer if I have a total brain fart on the trigger. Just can't know much about a 2 shot grouping... I would much prefer to fire 10 shot groups, but I would end up burning through all my bullets doing load development and never get to actually compete.

Because I have a positive indication of my maximum charge, as opposed to the mathematical guess, I will not load a charge that exceeds maximum as recommended by OCW.

Personally, I think the most valuable aspect of the OCW test is the method of shooting the test groups, ie shooting one from each charge weight moving to a different target after every shot, and then repeating for the 2nd shot from each group etc.

We probably all typically make the lowest charge weight batch first, then the next, and put them in the bullet box in nice tiny rows from left to right, and like to shoot them the way we made them. Warming up for the day, settling down, and then getting tired, day gets hotter and brighter by the end, so many variables changing constantly. I always used to wonder if the medium fast groups were better because they were in a sweet spot, or if it was because they simply weren't my first or last shots of the day.

Since discovering OCW, I have tried several different ways of randomizing the sequence without loosing track of what bullet is what, and I find there is a lot less noise in fired groups, and the results are much cleaner and easier to analyze and interpret when you just don't know which group of bullets relates to which charge weight. I would have fallen in love with OCW just for the more reliable method of firing the groups, let alone the math on choosing the right charge weight.

My current method of prepping for a test involves assigning a letter starting with the letter K to each charge weight, drawn from a hat and write down which charge weight correlates to each letter. I will then load my 4 shots of K, 4 shots of L, etc. I skip the first 10 letters of the alphabet to avoid any arbitrary psychological attachment I might have with letters A through J. (side note, I have seen friends use a similar method, but with 10 different loads for 3 different rifles, and group C was always the tightest group, 10 out of 10. It also happened to be the first letter of his name. More often than not this best group would not have been predicted to be the best, and confused his data set.)

When I go to the range, I will deliberately leave behind my notes as to which charge weight correlates to which letter, and just shoot the bullets left to right in the normal way. When I get home I will then measure the groupings for both distance from POI as per OCW method, AND vertical dispersion, and then match the groups up with their actual charge weight and sort them according to speed. 90% of the time the group in the middle of the OCW is also the one with the tightest vertical, and those few times that it isn't it is just over or just under the OCW. In that case, I will split the difference and move my OCW half a tick towards the group with the tightest vertical.

If the group size from the OCW group is under 1/2 MOA (it usually is, best so far is .33MOA), then I am done, and no other refining of the load is necessary. I am a 3/4 MOA shooter on my best day, and would much rather spend the extra 50 rounds actually shooting than developing a load that might save me a point or two in competition.

At the end of the day, both Ladder and OCW have their strengths, and I think the ultimate answer to what is better is somewhere in the middle. Whether you prefer one or the other, a personal mad scientist mix of both, I am absolutely certain that you need to blind yourself as much as possible the differences between the loads, so as to not be able to build any expectation towards results, which can influence how much you concentrate firing shot to shot, group to group. And also, you need to fire the groups sequentially, so you are spreading the uncontrollable variables of the day, wind, light, fatigue, etc, as evenly across all the groups as possible.
 
I also found little correlation between nodes identified using ladder vs. OCW. It's also interesting that I once fired two ladder tests under the same conditions and arrived at different results. Often this leads to doubt in your results and you'll end up reshooting the test. With OCW, you have a pretty good idea of your load's grouping and you can eliminate charges with too much vertical (there is often a pattern in the groups; vertical, horizontal, group). After the test, load a few cartridges to confirm at the longest distance they will be fired at, per the instructions from Dan.

I like the idea of mixing the two methods to an extent and am particularly interested in trying a 3 round group ladder test as described somewhere on accurateshooter. Testing is very satisfying for me and I do not see it as a waste but I understand why some people do.
 
I've had a very long discussion with many people regarding this. There's a case to be made from both sides of Ladder test and loading Statistics ES and SD.

Jerry don't know if you've been following Adam MacDonalds (Auto Trickler) Blogs but in his article about statistics and his load development it would point to the contrary. Basically (I may be generalizing his work) that giving enough rounds are put down range that have LO SD is proof and should give you confidence that it will be good down range. Considering his results at the Worlds and National it may provides some validity to his findings. His statistic blogs and the details he goes into is just to much for my mind to understand. He's a very bright and smart in my books.

I quote from his latest blog "Most people would look at the groups above and say that's terrible, there's no way it could work well at long range. In fact, that's not true. Since my chrono is capable of measuring it, I know the SD is very low, and this tells me the groups are going to stay pretty much the same size as they travel to 900 meters.

If you are able to understand a load in terms of dispersion and velocity independently, then you can completely predict its performance at any distance." Also he states "It's not one hole. It doesn't have to be. As long as these groups are repeatable, with the incredibly low SD, I know that group will maintain at long range. In any case, it's the best I have so far.

If you can fire 40 shots within 1/2" at 100 yards, and the SD is 5.0 or better, with a good bullet, you have a load capable of winning the F-class world championship. That's all I needed to see." End Quote.

I believe all his load testing is done at 100 yards. As for myself it's a combination of all three OCW, vertical testing and statistics.

When prepping for the 2013 Worlds, I was all over these forms of testing as there was plenty of snow on the ground 100yds was open and I had a great chronie.

I found a load that drove 18 of 19 rds fired consecutively into 1/8" at 100yds... spectacular numbers to boot. Gave myself a pat on the back and waited for the snow to melt. Being a never ending tester of stuff, I decided to get this wonder load hammering my 600m target. What a confidence builder to see 1 to 2" groups at that distance.

Great numbers, horrible accuracy... in fact accuracy was so bad, I couldn't keep the shots on a 8X11" target. How's that for a rude awakening?

Some adjustments in the load tested at 600m and voila, consistently good. Velocity numbers were no where as tight but groups out to 1000yds showed my results were what I needed.... now my wind reading skills at the time... That is a whole other story.

6.5CMes-sd.jpg

Here is a chart you will find very interesting. This was created by an F open shooter who has podiumed, all the good stuff in gear and very particular in loading and data gathering. He is shooting a Ruger Precision rifle at 300m, Berger 140gr Hybrid, H4350, prepped brass. pretty sure this was labradar data.

There are 2 loads there - 40.1 and 40.3gr...

Compare column A and column D... both have ES and SDs of 5 and 2 respectively. Look at the group size....

Compare column A and E... E has crappy ES and SD numbers BUT which group would you rather have. In fact add column F into the mix with "double" the numbers, still better groups.

Please look at the Row Seating BTO as that is what differentiates the columns. Yeah, he is a very precise kind of reloader... look at how a simple change in seating depth can change the ES/SD numbers but what is the change in group size????

I believe that any tuning process has to work over the widest range of applications and users. Any process that can lead to false positives, is not my idea of a good method. If you understand what "Black Swans" is refering to, you understand what I am getting at.

This is why I suggest holding seating depth constant with a distance from ogive to lands ideal for the bullet being used. Now when you adjust the powder charge AND you get small groups with low vertical at 200, preferably 250 to 300yds, you will get a load with small ES/SD numbers.

The theory about what ES and SD represents is sound. how it is being applied is not.

Loads that perform well at LR will have small ES/SD numbers.... another theory worth understanding is Positive Compensation. Yeah, this will really screw with the ES/SD thing but it puts bullets in the center way out there so...

A load that groups well at SR with good ES/SD numbers may not group well at LR.... I have plenty of proof of this.

Hope this helps.

Jerry
 

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