Officer shot in leg after his GLOCK 35 went off spontaneously, not even dropped :)

[dirtybarry]

How many rounds does it take to cause the slide rails to break on a Glock? And wouldn't it be pretty obvious that the gun had suffered a breakage causing it to be stripped and tossed into a bag or something?
I'm not a trained professional but when pieces start falling off, I figure it's time to stop shooting and unload things.

On a different note, good call on the tourniquets and best wishes to the officer for a full recovery.

 

[johnl]

They make 8 shot .357 revolvers, problem solved

 

[unstableryan]

Here it is.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...rawstring-triggers-glock-negligent-discharge/

 

[beltfed]

...the frame rails need to separate so that the slide lifts off of the frame....every so slightly...
The firing pin safety should prevent the firing pin from striking the primer....but if it is worn enough....may not. This is what happened in the Calgary Police incident years ago.

As I said before, heavy use guns need to be serviced and replaced often. Glock is so cheap that this can be done easier than replacing a more expensive gun. AND mags also wear out, replace them too fellas! (I'm as guilty as anyone of hanging onto mags and using them far too long.)

Rich

... a mechanical failure of the frame rails or the frame may cause an Accidental Discharge in a Glock. Considering the officer in the incident was with the Special Weapons Unit (something to that effect), it is conceivable that his Glock 35 has been used extensively and therefore possibly had a frame/rail failure. I hope Glock or the OPP will release its findings regarding this unfortunate AD.

How many rounds does it take to cause the slide rails to break on a Glock?

As I recall the Calgary Police member was with TAC and manouvering in/out of a vehicle as well when that incident took place(?) Correlation between high mileage pistols and flexing of frames? Probably a strong case for it.
Didn't the CPS fellow win a civil case (or at least settled out of court) with Glock?

And wouldn't it be pretty obvious that the gun had suffered a breakage causing it to be stripped and tossed into a bag or something?
I'm not a trained professional but when pieces start falling off, I figure it's time to stop shooting and unload things.

I doubt this is a case where negligence in cleaning or inspection of the firearm missed obvious damage. I'd wager that the failure in the frame occurred at or around the time of the discharge.

It does beg questioning the SOP of firearms use in training and duty carry. I'd say for the average copper it makes sense for them to train with their carry guns. But, maybe the folks that are frequent fliers at the range are issued two - one for duty and one for the range?

 

[CV32]

I doubt this is a case where negligence in cleaning or inspection of the firearm missed obvious damage. I'd wager that the failure in the frame occurred at or around the time of the discharge.

I highly doubt that. There would have to be multiple failures in the gun's components for it to discharge in this way, some or all of which would have been apparent to an experienced armourer or even the officer himself if he spent any time with the gun apart.

 

[mtstef]

"Is the GLOCK SA or DAO? The correct answer is – NO!

That’s right, it’s neither. GLOCK calls it the Safe Action Trigger but that’s just marketing speak. In actuality, it’s a hybrid. The movement of the slide combined with internal springs partially cocks the firing pin, more accurately called the striker. If it cocked the striker all the way, then it would be a SA because all the trigger would do was release the striker to move forward and strike the firing pin. If the trigger pull cocked the striker all the way before releasing it to fire, then it would be DAO. In reality, the movement of the slide partially cocks the striker and the pull of the trigger completes it, so it’s a little of both.

In practice, the GLOCK functions like a SA pistol. The trigger pull is about 5 ½ pounds with a short stroke and a quick reset. That’s SA territory. Also, you don’t get a second strike capability the way you do with a typical DAO pistol. In other words, because the trigger doesn’t fully #### the action, you can’t just pull the trigger again if the round doesn’t fire on the first try. (Well, you can, but it won’t do anything.)

Is it safe?

Which brings us to our second controversy. Since it has a light trigger and requires just a short stroke to fire, people ask, does it really have a safety. Again, the answer isn’t a simple yes or no. It does have a safety. It’s that little lever sticking out the face of the trigger. However, practically speaking, does it do what you want a safety to do? If you want to prevent the gun from firing should you inadvertently pull the trigger, it doesn’t do that. Some pundits say, “well then don’t pull the trigger until you want to shoot something! Duh.” While that’s good advice, it’s just incomplete (as well as ignorant of the vagaries of life). There have been numerous instances of people being shot without intentionally pulling the trigger. In fact, they didn’t have their finger anywhere near the trigger."

 

[CV32]

There have been numerous instances of people being shot without intentionally pulling the trigger. In fact, they didn’t have their finger anywhere near the trigger."

You don't need a finger to pull a trigger. But you do need human intervention of some kind, including allowing something else (e.g. a drawstring, clothing, debris, etc) to pull the trigger.

 

[bsand]

I highly doubt that. There would have to be multiple failures in the gun's components for it to discharge in this way, some or all of which would have been apparent to an experienced armourer or even the officer himself if he spent any time with the gun apart.

In my experience with CBSA officers.. they do not clean their guns even after repeated range trips. That's is beyond stupidity to me, considering your life is on the line, and not only their life but everyone of their co-workers and general public if their sidearm doesn't work as intended.

 

[CV32]

In my experience with CBSA officers.. they do not clean their guns even after repeated range trips. That's is beyond stupidity to me, considering your life is on the line, and not only their life but everyone of their co-workers and general public if their sidearm doesn't work as intended.

Absolutely; why would you ignore proper service and maintenance of a tool that you train with, carry everyday, and will rely upon in the worst possible scenario?

 

[dirtybarry]

Absolutely; why would you ignore proper service and maintenance of a tool that you train with, carry everyday, and will rely upon in the worst possible scenario?

Especially one that's designed to be easily serviced. An operational cleaning takes less than 10 minutes each for my plastic guns including getting the supplies out and putting everything away.

Just read a bit of history about Glock on Wikipedia and thought this was interesting regarding the possible mechanical failure issue:

After firing 15,000-rounds of standard ammunition, the pistol was to be inspected for wear. The pistol was to then be used to fire an overpressure test cartridge generating 5,000 bar (500 MPa; 73,000 psi). (The normal maximum operating pressure Pmax for the 9mm NATO is rated at 2,520 bar (252 MPa; 36,500 psi).)[SUP][11][/SUP] The critical components were to continue to function properly and be up to specifications, otherwise the pistol was to be disqualified.

 

[Rich LPS]

CV32 and dirtybarry,

Go back and read the previous posts. Believe me a very extensive investigation was done after the Calgary incident, it was a highly trained Tactical Support Team member. You are right, hopefully the Officer or Armorer can spot some damage during inspection or cleaning but sometimes damage is not clearly visible. During regular cleaning unless one grabs the slide and forcefully twists it on the frame you might miss a separating / damaged frame insert.

Can't comment on an civil suit against Glock after the Calgary incident. Maybe the Winnipeg incident was different circumstances, we don't know yet. But the point of this discussion is that yes it is possible for the Glock to have damage / worn parts and fire without the trigger being pulled.

Beltfed is correct the CPS member was getting out of his vehicle and force was exerted on the grip of the gun (which happens nearly every time I'm at the range and sit down with a holstered gun) while it was holstered when it fired while inside the holster.

Rich

 

[rkm456]

As I recall the Calgary Police member was with TAC and manouvering in/out of a vehicle as well when that incident took place(?) Correlation between high mileage pistols and flexing of frames? Probably a strong case for it.
Didn't the CPS fellow win a civil case (or at least settled out of court) with Glock?

Just to extrapolate on your point about frame flex. It occurs to me that people don't realize just how much a Glock frame will flex. For example if I have my x300 on my 34 I can't take the slide off.

 

[CV32]

CV32 and dirtybarry, Go back and read the previous posts. Believe me a very extensive investigation was done after the Calgary incident, it was a highly trained Tactical Support Team member. You are right, hopefully the Officer or Armorer can spot some damage during inspection or cleaning but sometimes damage is not clearly visible. During regular cleaning unless one grabs the slide and forcefully twists it on the frame you might miss a separating / damaged frame insert. Can't comment on an civil suit against Glock after the Calgary incident. Maybe the Winnipeg incident was different circumstances, we don't know yet. But the point of this discussion is that yes it is possible for the Glock to have damage / worn parts and fire without the trigger being pulled. Beltfed is correct the CPS member was getting out of his vehicle and force was exerted on the grip of the gun (which happens nearly every time I'm at the range and sit down with a holstered gun) while it was holstered when it fired while inside the holster.

I have read the entire thread already, thanks. I don't disagree that a pistol - any pistol, Glock or otherwise - can malfunction and fire inadvertently if there is damage. I don't agree, however, that it can occur without human intervention or that the damage is impossible to detect.

 

[dirtybarry]

CV32 and dirtybarry,

Go back and read the previous posts. Believe me a very extensive investigation was done after the Calgary incident, it was a highly trained Tactical Support Team member. You are right, hopefully the Officer or Armorer can spot some damage during inspection or cleaning but sometimes damage is not clearly visible. During regular cleaning unless one grabs the slide and forcefully twists it on the frame you might miss a separating / damaged frame insert.

Can't comment on an civil suit against Glock after the Calgary incident. Maybe the Winnipeg incident was different circumstances, we don't know yet. But the point of this discussion is that yes it is possible for the Glock to have damage / worn parts and fire without the trigger being pulled.

Beltfed is correct the CPS member was getting out of his vehicle and force was exerted on the grip of the gun (which happens nearly every time I'm at the range and sit down with a holstered gun) while it was holstered when it fired while inside the holster.

Rich

Well then, if this a thing that happens with Glock albeit rarely, I'll pass on buying one. But also have to wonder about the recent US military decision to go with Sig.

 

[DanRR]

Absolutely; why would you ignore proper service and maintenance of a tool that you train with, carry everyday, and will rely upon in the worst possible scenario?

Because Joe Cop is not a gun nutz; sometime, he must be forced to go to the range.
So much then for taking care of his weapon.

 

[CV32]

Because Joe Cop is not a gun nutz; sometime, he must be forced to go to the range. So much then for taking care of his weapon.

While probably often true, this is not a valid excuse for ignoring the proper service and maintenance of the tools of your trade. Not to mention that there is sometimes an armourer serving as an additional layer of attention.

 

[skoal]

Because Joe Cop is not a gun nutz; sometime, he must be forced to go to the range.
So much then for taking care of his weapon.

Alot of cops shoot at my range before quals and more then once I've seen guys show up to shoot with guns that dont work and they've been walking around with paperweights.

 

[DanRR]

While probably often true, this is not a valid excuse for ignoring the proper service and maintenance of the tools of your trade. Not to mention that there is sometimes an armourer serving as an additional layer of attention.

Absolutely true.
I was there.

 

[Rich LPS]

Wow, how we are quick to cast stones on missing a defect with a piece of equipment. Some times it happens to very experienced shooters too. We are not all perfect all of the time. Depending on how the frame rails / inserts broke or were damaged it might be hard to spot....unless you are perfect. I'm very particular with my firearms and clean often and have missed things before.

Rich

 

[easyrider604]

Did I miss it? Is the jury out on the Glock pistol in the Calgary incident? What's the verdict please.