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Rugerman

Rugerman

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Last week I loaded up 300 rounds of .223 using 55 gr. fmj’s. Since I would be using them in a number of guns, all semi autos, I felt the best thing to do was use small base dies (RCBS) so there would be no feeding issues with whatever gun the rounds were going into. I have reloaded several thousand rounds this way and not a problem.

While shooting some of these rounds a fellow came over to ask me some questions so I decided to unload my rifle while we talked. I dropped the mag out and then went to extract the loaded round. I had to pull as hard as I could to get the round out. This really surprised me as I had used the small base dies.

I loaded it again later and tried extracting the loaded rounds. Same thing. Each one was stuck tight in the chamber, requiring a really strong pull to get the rounds to come out. I mean straining with eyes bulging, red faced tight, kind of pulling.

I thought maybe the bullets were moving forward because of loose necks or something and engaging the rifling but they were still in place and no amount of pushing or pulling with my fingers could get them to move so I eliminated that possibility.

They were seated to the cannelure and did not exceed max OAL so that shouldn’t be an issue.

I thought maybe I had a dirty chamber (bit of a long shot) but they did the same thing in another (clean) rifle. I could barely get them out. The cases were twice fired previously. I randomly checked about 2 dozen for overall case length when I was reloading them and all were well below the max.

I double checked the diameter of the bullets I was using just in case they were on the fat side but they were .223 in diameter (a couple were actually .2225) so I eliminated that possibility.

On a whim I tried using a batch of target rounds which had been loaded on competition dies (FL) for an SPR . I put them in the mag and then loaded the rifle. First round extracted effortlessly. So did the next four.

BTW I also tried using factory loads and they fed and extracted normally.

So what is happening that the small base die is causing rounds to stick in the chamber but competition dies, which, as I understand it, resize much less- are not? I feel like I am missing something but can’t figure out what. The only thing that I have left, that I can think of, is that the die is the problem? How, exactly, would I check for that? Or is it something else I have overlooked. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.
 
Rugerman said:
Last week I loaded up 300 rounds of .223 using 55 gr. fmj’s. Since I would be using them in a number of guns, all semi autos, I felt the best thing to do was use small base dies (RCBS) so there would be no feeding issues with whatever gun the rounds were going into. I have reloaded several thousand rounds this way and not a problem.

While shooting some of these rounds a fellow came over to ask me some questions so I decided to unload my rifle while we talked. I dropped the mag out and then went to extract the loaded round. I had to pull as hard as I could to get the round out. This really surprised me as I had used the small base dies.

I loaded it again later and tried extracting the loaded rounds. Same thing. Each one was stuck tight in the chamber, requiring a really strong pull to get the rounds to come out. I mean straining with eyes bulging, red faced tight, kind of pulling.

I thought maybe the bullets were moving forward because of loose necks or something and engaging the rifling but they were still in place and no amount of pushing or pulling with my fingers could get them to move so I eliminated that possibility.

They were seated to the cannelure and did not exceed max OAL so that shouldn’t be an issue.

I thought maybe I had a dirty chamber (bit of a long shot) but they did the same thing in another (clean) rifle. I could barely get them out. The cases were twice fired previously. I randomly checked about 2 dozen for overall case length when I was reloading them and all were well below the max.

I double checked the diameter of the bullets I was using just in case they were on the fat side but they were .223 in diameter (a couple were actually .2225) so I eliminated that possibility.

On a whim I tried using a batch of target rounds which had been loaded on competition dies (FL) for an SPR . I put them in the mag and then loaded the rifle. First round extracted effortlessly. So did the next four.

BTW I also tried using factory loads and they fed and extracted normally.

So what is happening that the small base die is causing rounds to stick in the chamber but competition dies, which, as I understand it, resize much less- are not? I feel like I am missing something but can’t figure out what. The only thing that I have left, that I can think of, is that the die is the problem? How, exactly, would I check for that? Or is it something else I have overlooked. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.
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Sounds like a headspace problem, not enough. Had the same problem loading match ammo for an AR.
 
The most common cause of this happening is from too much crimp, using standard crimping dies. This pushes the shoulder back, expaneing it so it fits the chamber tight.
A quick test, to see if this happened, would be to take the insides out of your sizing/decapping die. Push one of your troublesome rounds full into the sizing die, then see if it goes normally into the chamber.
 
H4831 said:
The most common cause of this happening is from too much crimp, using standard crimping dies. This pushes the shoulder back, expaneing it so it fits the chamber tight.
A quick test, to see if this happened, would be to take the insides out of your sizing/decapping die. Push one of your troublesome rounds full into the sizing die, then see if it goes normally into the chamber.
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These rounds were not crimped. I check each one by hand for looseness. Not an issue here.
 
blacksmithden said:
Did you check the bullets to see if there were rifling marks in them ??? Your cartridges might be a little long. Just a thought.
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If you read my thread it tells you that the bullets did not move from their original position.

Quote: I thought maybe the bullets were moving forward because of loose necks or something and engaging the rifling but they were still in place and no amount of pushing or pulling with my fingers could get them to move so I eliminated that possibility.
 
crashcollins said:
Did you measure case length? Being fired and resized a few times they might be to long now.
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As mentioned in the thread, that was checked.
Quote: "The cases were twice fired previously. I randomly checked about 2 dozen for overall case length when I was reloading them and all were well below the max."
 
Well Rugerman, it is a mystry.
You didn't mention the cartridges being hard to load, like hard to close the action, so that should rule out not enough headspace. Besides, they should just tighten on the shoulder, then pop right out, if it was lack of headspace.
Just so you can feel you have tried everything, why don't you take the innards out of your sizing/decapping die and run a couple full into it, just to see if there is a difference.
I can't think of anything else to try.
Good luck.
 
Rugerman said:
The cases were twice fired previously.
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Were they fired in another rifle?

I have had this same problem with range pick up brass or brass from another rifle. I'm assuming that the brass when fired in a larger chamber retains much of that size and won't fully resize even with a FLR die. All I know is that new brass kept to a specific rifle will solve the problem.


.
 
Even though you ran them through your small-based dies, it may not be setting the shoulder back enough. If they have been fired in different rifles, the shoulder needs to be bumped back. Just a matter of setting up your die properly...

Try turning the die in 1/8 turn and then size a case and try it...repeat as necessary until it fits good...
 
Small base dies tend to really iron out the brass. If you have fired and resized multiple times you should have had to trim the cases a least once. I would measure more then a handful of cases, max case length should be 1.760 trim to length is 1.750. 55gr. bullets are short so I don't think they are loaded long if you are seating to the cannelure. Closely inspect one of the chambered live rounds you removed for marks, that much effort to open the action to remove the round should be leaving marks on the case where it's jamming.
Or you can make a dummy round cover it with magic marker (case and bullet) chamber it and remove, look for marks.
 
I think you have an OAL problem - either the cases or the loaded rounds. I suspect the latter. You didnt mention if this happened in more than one rifle - perhaps that one rifle has a short leade.
Published OAL's are simply a guideline - do a measurement test for the rifle in question. Experienced reloaders do this test as a matter of course such that the proximity to lands can be established for a given rifle and bullet.
 
Why don't you just pick up your micrometer or calibers and start measuring the case? Start checking dimensions versus what you have in your loading manual and against your competition sized cases. Once you figure out whats oversized, it will be much easier to troubleshoot whats causing it.
 
H4831 said:
Well Rugerman, it is a mystry.
You didn't mention the cartridges being hard to load, like hard to close the action, so that should rule out not enough headspace. Besides, they should just tighten on the shoulder, then pop right out, if it was lack of headspace.
Just so you can feel you have tried everything, why don't you take the innards out of your sizing/decapping die and run a couple full into it, just to see if there is a difference.
I can't think of anything else to try.
Good luck.
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You know I thought you had something there so I tried that since loading the rounds was not an issue. They went in just fine with no binding. So I took out the innards and carefully resized 5 rounds. I tried them in two of my semis and, while easier to extract, they were still sticking.
When I normally resize with SB dies I set the sizer die so that it is almost touching the shell holder, just a small crack of light between the two. Since that wasn't working I set up the die so that the shell holder was touching the die. Chambered some more rounds and they were slightly better but still sticking. I figured I had nothing to lose so I actually lowered the sizer so that it would press on the shell holder while sizing. When I took them out of the sizer you could see a small, shiny ring around the top of the shoulders. Tried 5 of those in the gun and guess what? The rounds extracted like factory stuff!

While I may have solved the problem, I am concerned about having the ram set so tight. Could I damage the die or ram by having it set up past the sizer die? Could the die be worn out? I have loaded about 5, 000 rounds through it. Or maybe I should stick with the competition die for all reloading of this caliber since it doesn't seem to create this problem?

BTW, thanks for the idea.
 
I always cam over my press just slightly when FL sizing, I don't think it's a problem as it's suggested in many manuals and by most of the press manufacturers.
 
Yes, some manuals suggest screwing in the die until it touches the shellholder, then going 1/4 turn more...

Just be careful you haven't gone too far, as that will create headspace problems and kill your brass quickly...
 
rommelrommel said:
I always cam over my press just slightly when FL sizing, I don't think it's a problem as it's suggested in many manuals and by most of the press manufacturers.
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OK, so camming over slightly is ok. I just don't understand why I haven't had to do that before. What has changed?

(I guess I should just be happy I now know what the problem is. On the other hand I feel the need to know why I have to cam over when I didn't before. I don't do it with my compettion dies either and they fit just fine!?!)
 
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