OK, You asked for it ... What are the most overrated RIFLE cartridges?

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Cartridge          : .[B]30-06 Spring[/B].  
Bullet             : .308, [B]150, Nosler BalTip[/B] 30150
Useable Case Capaci: 63.636 grain H2O = 4.132 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.420 inch = 86.87 mm
Barrel Length      : [B]24.0 inch[/B] = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 104 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

94 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-17                  98.7     60.8     3.94    3162   100.0    62000   10120   1.026  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                     103.5     62.7     4.06    3102    98.0    62000   10165   1.038  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      97.6     60.5     3.92    3088    97.1    62000   10114   1.043  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        97.6     60.5     3.92    3088    97.1    62000   10114   1.043  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16                 104.0     59.4     3.85    3085    99.6    59153    9896   1.053  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                     99.8     59.8     3.87    3083    99.1    62000    9967   1.051  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223                      87.7     57.3     3.71    3067    99.9    62000    9429   1.048  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game                    92.9     58.1     3.76    3065    99.7    62000    9447   1.047  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            92.6     54.3     3.52    3060    99.8    62000    9481   1.055  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15                  93.5     54.8     3.55    3049    99.6    62000    9436   1.056  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2                       88.2     56.5     3.66    3045   100.0    62000    9227   1.058  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748                      85.8     54.2     3.51    3044   100.0    62000    8902   1.053  ! Near Maximum !

Code: 
Cartridge          : .[B]300 H.& H. Mag[/B].
Bullet             : .308, [B]150, Nosler BalTip [/B]30150
Useable Case Capaci: 76.216 grain H2O = 4.949 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.600 inch = 91.44 mm
Barrel Length      : [B]24.0 inch[/B] = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 104 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

112 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26                 103.0     77.8     5.04    3374    99.8    62000   13284   1.027  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17                  93.0     68.6     4.44    3294   100.0    62000   11811   1.020  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                       104.0     75.1     4.86    3287    95.2    61989   12806   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16                  99.3     67.9     4.40    3256   100.0    62000   11675   1.031  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                    104.0     74.7     4.84    3254    94.2    59300   13021   1.051  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      97.6     70.8     4.59    3239    98.9    62000   12021   1.030  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                 102.3     71.9     4.66    3237    96.8    62000   12230   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                 104.0     73.9     4.79    3232    96.3    58918   12663   1.041  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      92.2     68.5     4.44    3231    98.3    62000   12008   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        92.2     68.5     4.44    3231    98.3    62000   12008   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                     94.3     67.7     4.39    3220    99.7    62000   11730   1.041  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           101.7     68.5     4.44    3201    99.8    62000   11363   1.043  ! Near Maximum !

Avg speed 3080 vs 3255 fps (175 fps spread)
 
In my estimation there are two factors involved.

For the non-reloader, usefulness hinges on what is available with a large selection by both manufacturers, bullet weights and desired ballistics.

This would entail 308Win, 30-06, 300 WM, 270 Win, 7mm RM and a host of others.
What a shooter has found that met his needs in the past may become unavailable. Does that make it useless?

For the reloader, once bullet weights and desired construction is determined all that is needed is a supply and source for brass.

When I go to LGS's, what I have personally is generally in short supply. 280 Rem and 25-06 but all I have to find are bullets.
Others in this category is the 260 Rem., 7-mm08 and 6mm Rem.

Usefulness and uselessness are in the eye of the beholder. What started out with a purpose and suffered bad press or marketing does not make it useless.
 
Gatehouse said:
Own a 270? You are a victim of marketing hype.

Own any belted cartridge that doesn't require a belt? You are a victim of marketing hype.

Own anything Weatherby or RUM? You are a victim of marketing hype.

I could go on forever Laugh2

Some cartridges actually offer an improvement over similar cartridges, but they aren't important to everyone. The 6.5 Creed sure has had lots of hype but it does offer improvements over the 6.5x55 or .260 in some areas, but it is up to the individual to decide if these improvements matter to him. Same with the 375 Ruger over the 375 H&H. although the improvements of the Ruger are perhaps more visible and pronounced.
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Please explain how a .300WBY is marketing hype?
 
sikwhiskey said:
308 and 3006 wouldn’t exist if the 7.5x55 was made in “merica”. 7.5 Swiss is about the perfect case for 30 cal, and beat the 30-30 to production by 4 years or so, 1889 if memory serves. Both 308 and 06 are great cartridges, do and have done what they were designed for. The 7.5 design was built beyond its time by 100 years, didn’t get any love this side of the pond. To me, the 30-30 can’t be classified as overrated, never got close to any rating. The WSM and RSAUM are overrated.
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1-trident-1 said:
the 7.5x55 was designed when powders were less than they are today. it is an excellent cartridge, but has too much volume for todays powders. it was used to develop the .308
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compare the swiss to the french in 7.5 ... very interesting.
 
medvedqc said:
well i have to disagree or your lol was forgotten ... roy was not a gunsmith but an insurance salesman ... that found some interesting 8x68s cartridges in germany ...
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I think it was probably parrallell evolution. Or maybe an American in 1944 copied a cartridge designed in Germany in 1939 except they look nothing alike and do not share a parent case.

And by the way Weatherby was a wildcatter and yes, a gunsmith. He did sell cars and insurance before and while getting his firearms company off the ground. He re-invented the american rifle from a drab brown stick to a ###y sleek curvy california queen and the boring cartridges of the time to exciting whiz bangs. Harris Holland sold tobacco, Keith was a cowboy, O'Connor was an English Professor, Whelen was a soldier, Remington was a blacksmith, Winchester was a venture capitalist and Ackley was a farmer. Whats your point? That he changed careers? So did everyone else.

As for being a marketer, yes he was. As were all the others I mentioned. I did not mention the other 10 thousand gun smiths and wildcatters that were not marketers. Know why? Cause nobody knows them cause they were not marketers and are therefore irrelavent.
 
nof60 said:
Please explain how a .300WBY is marketing hype?
Click to expand...

All products have marketing, as without some marketing they usually will fail. But in the area of marketing firearms and cartridges, Weatherby stands head and shoulders above them all.

Some of the original marketing for the 300 WBY was "Range in doubt? The flat shooting, hard hitting 300 WBY takes the guess work out of long shots" making it sound like you just had to point and shoot and no worries! :)

The double radius shoulders, the belted cases that were supposed to be "stronger" as they were needed to contain the mighty power of the WBY cartridges- all hype.

And lets not forget the slogan- Nothing Shoots Flatter, Hits Harder, Or Is More Accurate sounds like hype to me. :)
 
Gatehouse said:
All products have marketing, as without some marketing they usually will fail. But in the area of marketing firearms and cartridges, Weatherby stands head and shoulders above them all.

Some of the original marketing for the 300 WBY was "Range in doubt? The flat shooting, hard hitting 300 WBY takes the guess work out of long shots" making it sound like you just had to point and shoot and no worries! :)

The double radius shoulders, the belted cases that were supposed to be "stronger" as they were needed to contain the mighty power of the WBY cartridges- all hype.

And lets not forget the slogan- Nothing Shoots Flatter, Hits Harder, Or Is More Accurate sounds like hype to me. :)
Click to expand...

In 1944 and for the next few years this was true. Scopes were crap and doping scopes had not been invented. So out to about 350 yards (400 if you had it shooting 2"high at 200) you really did just have to point and shoot. At the time nothing in production in N America "Shot Flatter, Hit Harder or was more accurate". Some hit harder, some shot flatter (not many) and some were more accurate but nothing had all 3. Prove me wrong? What calibre common in N.America beat the .300 Wby? Weatherby was a good marketer but he also had a new innovative product to work with. Fast. flat shooting calibres. Curvy crazy rifles. They had more curves and swagger than Marilyn singing happy Bday to JFK! The Mark V was super strong and those early WBY rifles looked absolutely fab crazy. In a world of 30/06 and .303 and 30-30 the .300WBY was amazing. Anything North American that comes even close came after.

The .300 WBY was not the new king of the .300s. Some weak ass inbred prince that was marginally better than what was already around (.375 Ruger comes to mind). It was Genghis Khan who kicked in the palace door, dragged the old king (30-06) by the hair, executed him, then fathered a kid with his wife.

I love defending Roy. Too much fun.
 
nof60 said:
In 1944 and for the next few years this was true. Scopes were crap and doping scopes had not been invented. So out to about 350 yards (400 if you had it shooting 2"high at 200) you really did just have to point and shoot. At the time nothing in production in N America "Shot Flatter, Hit Harder or was more accurate". Some hit harder, some shot flatter (not many) and some were more accurate but nothing had all 3. Prove me wrong? What calibre common in N.America beat the .300 Wby? Weatherby was a good marketer but he also had a new innovative product to work with. Fast. flat shooting calibres. Curvy crazy rifles. They had more curves and swagger than Marilyn singing happy Bday to JFK! The Mark V was super strong and those early WBY rifles looked absolutely fab crazy. In a world of 30/06 and .303 and 30-30 the .300WBY was amazing. Anything North American that comes even close came after.

The .300 WBY was not the new king of the .300s. Some weak ass inbred prince that was marginally better than what was already around (.375 Ruger comes to mind). It was Genghis Khan who kicked in the palace door, dragged the old king (30-06) by the hair, executed him, then fathered a kid with his wife.

I love defending Roy. Too much fun.
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Indeed, it was great marketing for the time and I am sure that it convinced lots of hunters that their 30-06 or 270 was inadequate. Just like good hype is supposed to do.
 
nof60 said:
I think it was probably parrallell evolution. Or maybe an American in 1944 copied a cartridge designed in Germany in 1939 except they look nothing alike and do not share a parent case.

And by the way Weatherby was a wildcatter and yes, a gunsmith. He did sell cars and insurance before and while getting his firearms company off the ground. He re-invented the american rifle from a drab brown stick to a ###y sleek curvy california queen and the boring cartridges of the time to exciting whiz bangs. Harris Holland sold tobacco, Keith was a cowboy, O'Connor was an English Professor, Whelen was a soldier, Remington was a blacksmith, Winchester was a venture capitalist and Ackley was a farmer. Whats your point? That he changed careers? So did everyone else.

As for being a marketer, yes he was. As were all the others I mentioned. I did not mention the other 10 thousand gun smiths and wildcatters that were not marketers. Know why? Cause nobody knows them cause they were not marketers and are therefore irrelavent.
Click to expand...

sorry i did not knew weatherby sr was a gunsmith as i have seen firearms made for him from germany and japan. changing careers is not a problem. sorry if i scratch your love for roy weatherby ...

the 8x68s for sure is nothing we all know as a design but he took the work done by shuler like the little bottle neck so famously called double radius by weatherby ...
a point of precision: the 8x68s came out on 1938 and rws starting to offer factory ammo in the spring of 1939 ...
 
My father in law shared a deer camp in the 80s with a guy who missed a buck that morning with his 300 Weatherby Mag. When questioned how far the buck was, he said "about 400 yards", and when asked where he put the crosshairs, he scoffed and said "right on the shoulder" - my FIL laughed and said the bullet never got there. So they set up a couple paper plates at 400 paces from camp and the 300 Wby owner aimed right at the plate and the puff of dust landed short of the target

My FIL's turn, he held about a foot and a half over the plate with his 7mm Mag and fired. They walked up and he had hit near the center. He accepts there was some luck in him hitting, but he knows about gravity

He always tells that story when the subject of Weatherby cartridges comes up

Laugh2
 
todbartell said:
My father in law shared a deer camp in the 80s with a guy who missed a buck that morning with his 300 Weatherby Mag. When questioned how far the buck was, he said "about 400 yards", and when asked where he put the crosshairs, he scoffed and said "right on the shoulder" - my FIL laughed and said the bullet never got there. So they set up a couple paper plates at 400 paces from camp and the 300 Wby owner aimed right at the plate and the puff of dust landed short of the target

My FIL's turn, he held about a foot and a half over the plate with his 7mm Mag and fired. They walked up and he had hit near the center. He accepts there was some luck in him hitting, but he knows about gravity

He always tells that story when the subject of Weatherby cartridges comes up

Laugh2
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so funny. but you know as clark wrote it shoots were you aims or mostly lol and i had a 340 and 300 wea and adjustements were needed.
i loved so much the markv we had one in 300 hh ...
 
With a 300 WBY and a 180 gr bullet and a 300 yard zero you are about 3" high at 100, 4" high at 200 and 9" low at 400. That's from WBY's own factory ammo data. So it's quite likely he shot short of the deer. Fast muzzle velocities only compensate so much, there are other factors at play. That hunter fell victim to marketing hype! :)
 
Gatehouse said:
With a 300 WBY and a 180 gr bullet and a 300 yard zero you are about 3" high at 100, 4" high at 200 and 9" low at 400. That's from WBY's own factory ammo data. So it's quite likely he shot short of the deer. Fast muzzle velocities only compensate so much, there are other factors at play. That hunter fell victim to marketing hype! :)
Click to expand...

With a 165 which is what it was designed to shoot it is 2.7" 3.4" 0.0" -8.1" all within minute of deer

For reference a 30/06 with 165 was 1.9"0"-8" and -22"
 
medvedqc said:
so funny. but you know as clark wrote it shoots were you aims or mostly lol and i had a 340 and 300 wea and adjustements were needed.
i loved so much the markv we had one in 300 hh ...
Click to expand...

Hold on hair not air!!!

Problem with Roys theory was most hunters at the time zero'd it for 100 yards, never shot past 200 at the range and believed the magic of weatherby would kill an elk at 500 yards during hunting season.

Yep WBY was a good marketer but I do not accept that his cartridges or rifles were overhyped. It was 20 years until Winchester came out with something even close to the .300 WBY and the .257 WBY has no equal in in every aspect today including throat errosion and barrell burning.

Haters gonna hate.
 
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