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OK, You asked for it ... What are the most overrated RIFLE cartridges?
- Thread starter The Kurgan
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308 Winchester. People put it in a SBR which effectively turns it into a 7.62x39 with a few more grains of bullet weight.
It would have been a fine cartridge in 1895, but it was over half a century out of date when it was introduced. The 30-06 does everything better with the exception of fitting in a Savage 99.
It would have been a fine cartridge in 1895, but it was over half a century out of date when it was introduced. The 30-06 does everything better with the exception of fitting in a Savage 99.
I've loaded for a 16.1" 308, easily push 2600 fps with 150gr Barnes TTSX. That's only 200 fps behind what I have chrony'd factory 150gr ammo from in a 24" 30-06
Here's a fairly recent barrel chop by the inch article on the 308. Typically commercial 123gr 7.62x39 ammunition like Barnaul or Norinco will clock about 2300-2350 FPS with an 18.5" barrel. About 100 fps lower with a 14.5" barrel. Gotta chop a 308 barrel to 10-11" to get similar speeds with a 147gr -150gr bullet. But what would a 10" x39 barrel do? 2000fps with a 123gr bullet is what most of the 10.5" barrel AK47's seem to shoot.
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/30...-length-and-velocity-a-six-inch-308-bolt-gun/
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That's awesome, compare reloads with factory and 10" AK's.
Plenty of European Milsurp 7.62x39 chronos at 2425-2450, even up to 2518fps.
Nato Spec 7.62x51 from Hirtenberger does 2521 in a ~17.5" barrel. The IMI in the post above is even slower.
So yeah, a 308 SBR has a lot in common with an SKS and is inferior in all respects as a hunting rifle to the good old Winchester 94.
Plenty of European Milsurp 7.62x39 chronos at 2425-2450, even up to 2518fps.
Nato Spec 7.62x51 from Hirtenberger does 2521 in a ~17.5" barrel. The IMI in the post above is even slower.
So yeah, a 308 SBR has a lot in common with an SKS and is inferior in all respects as a hunting rifle to the good old Winchester 94.
The term "SBR" is mostly an American thing used to designate rifles with barrels under 16" which is their legal cut off. It could be a lever action, bolt or semi, doesn't matter. In the USA they class the Mares Leg lever actions with 12" barrels as pistols whereas we class them as rifles. We can put a full stock on one without changing it's status but in the USA that would convert it to a SBR and you would have to pay to register it.
In Canada our laws are different so an "SBR" barrel length might be anything shorter than "normal."
So what length of barrel is the 308 SBR you are talking about and what velocity were you getting?
7.62x51 is rated for a lower pressure than 308 ammunition. Which is why the IMI in the table is slower than the Winchester 147gr 308.
Here are some 7.62x39 velocities I recorded a few years ago using a Labradar:
AR15- 14.5" barrel
Norinco White Box
Avg Vel 2241
ES 48
SD 21.5
Dominion
Vel 1954
ES 86
SD 29.9
Barnaul
Vel 2241
ES 61
SD 23.2
Type 81- 18.5" barrel
Norinco White Box
Vel 2354
ES 74
SD 28.7
Dominion
Vel 1967
ES 73
SD 27.7
Barnaul
Vel 2324
ES63
SD 24.7
About 2350fps for a 123gr from a 18.5" barrel and 2241 from a 14.5" barrel. At any barrel length a .308 offers about a 200-300 fps increase over a x39 and with 25 grains more bullet. I am sure some select milsurp ammo will get into the 2400+ fps zone from a 18.5" barrel so a similar speed to a 12" 308 but with a heavier bullet. If I was going to hunt with a 12" 308 and wanted more speed I would just use a 130gr bullet which Should get you about 300 FPS more than a 123gr x39 from a SKS.
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I said in my post the barrel length.
Velocities for surplus 7.62x39 hardly "select" merely what has been available in bulk and cheap.
"BXN 85" 2518 fps
"BXN 73" 2425 fps
"21 79" 2518 fps
"21 78" 2436 fps
"711 94" 2451 fps
"351 94" 2398 fps
So some 7.62x51 is actually slower than some 7.62x39, albeit with ~25 grains more bullet weight.
Definitely a short barreled 308 is the most overrated.
Velocities for surplus 7.62x39 hardly "select" merely what has been available in bulk and cheap.
"BXN 85" 2518 fps
"BXN 73" 2425 fps
"21 79" 2518 fps
"21 78" 2436 fps
"711 94" 2451 fps
"351 94" 2398 fps
So some 7.62x51 is actually slower than some 7.62x39, albeit with ~25 grains more bullet weight.
Definitely a short barreled 308 is the most overrated.
In a 16.1” Ruger Scout, 308 150 gr Factory soft points like Winchester and Remington are 2650-2700 FPS. 125 gr bullets go 2850FPS.
SKS has a 20” barrel. 308 with 4” shorter barrel is going 350FPS faster with a comparable weight bullet than the fastest FMJ x39 load listed above. Most of the factory x39 hunting ammo is in the 2300-2350 FPS range from a full length barrel, 500FPS slower than a 16” 308 with similar weight bullets.
SKS has a 20” barrel. 308 with 4” shorter barrel is going 350FPS faster with a comparable weight bullet than the fastest FMJ x39 load listed above. Most of the factory x39 hunting ammo is in the 2300-2350 FPS range from a full length barrel, 500FPS slower than a 16” 308 with similar weight bullets.
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If you you want there most versatile cartridge on the planet look no further than the 300 PRC
The by the inch table starts at 15" and goes down and uses different ammunition than what I measured with a Labradar in my Ruger Scout with a 16.1" barrel. The 2498 FPS load in the table is not 308 ammunition, it's 7.62x51, and hardly representative of all 308 ammunition available.
Using the data that I obtained for 125gr bullets, I estimate that a it is not until a 308 has approximately an 8" barrel that it will have similar velocity to a SKS with a 20" barrel and 123 gr bullets.
Another apples to apples comparison can be made with the commercial 154gr 7.62x39 which is listed as having around 2100FPS velocity. Looking at the table with the 147/150 gr 308 loads it looks like you would again have to have a 8-9" barrel on a 308 for similar results.
I suspect anyone with a 8" barrel 308 has it for schits and giggles at the range and doesn't really care about the performance.
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It's a pretty darn good cartridge. I have a precision rifle chambered for it. If I ever want another 300 magnum hunting rifle I would for sure go for the PRC.
Well, I measured NATO spec 7.62x51 in a ~17.5" barrel at 2521 fps, this is THREE fps faster than the fastest two 7.62x39 loads I chronoed.
So yeah, the shorty 308 is very similar to an SKS, granted with slightly more bullet weight.
But yeah, let's compare the 308 to a 10" AK or ask if the bullets bounce off and talk about 8" barrels.
OVERRATED!
Maybe try some actual quality .308 Win ammo if you want proper velocity. 2500 FPS with a 150 gr bullet is 12" barrel territory.
No, I'm happy with the 16.1" scout. Probably won't go for a shorter barrel. With 1.5" less barrel than your rifle I get 150+ fps more than the low velocity ammo you used.
You never did answer if they will bounce off ?
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