Our group of 4 pool 1 hunters and 1 pool 2 hunter did not receive an adult tag. We applied as a group of 4, pool 1 choice 1, bull; pool 1 choice 2, cow. When looking at surplus tags available we found that there are cow tags available in the WMU that we applied in. I don't understand how that is possible. My understanding is that if we were not successful in getting a bull tag (pool 1 choice 1) then we should have gotten a cow tag (pool 1 choice 2) since there are surplus cow tags. What am I missing??
Ontario Moose Draw Results???
- Thread starter Slooshark1
- Start date
Your "system" is not working. You are trying return tags... meaning you received more than desired and in turn, removed those tags from going to another hunter or party... the tags are limited enough without having groups squandering unwanted tags... if you want two tags, apply in two groups... if you want a cow and bull tag, have one group apply for a bull and one apply for a cow... then you will ONLY receive two tags max and the remainder of the group will be in Pool 1 for the following year.
Applying as a group is always best as there are three stages to the draw;
1. Guaranteed Group
2. Large Group
3. Individual
If your "group" is not successful in the first two stages then all members of the group are automatically entered in the individual draw stage anyways.
It amazes me how many hunters don't understand the system even after decades of applying.
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I only ever made one inquiry about returning tags. Based on the reply received I never pursued it further. If we had enough Pool 1 applicants we could be assured of receiving one tag. In our case we would always ask for a bull. For a number of years we have not had enough Pool 1 applicants to be guaranteed of receiving a tag. Before the recent change in the regulations license holders had an opportunity to hunt calves (supposedly). Since we have only seen two calves in approx. 20 years this was never considered to be an option on which we would spend our money on a hunt.
In view of this we found making individual applications resulted in us obtaining more tags than we might have gotten otherwise. What we were looking for was the way which was most likely to produce some tags for us. Analysis of the numbers shown in the Adult Moose Tag Draw Gun Quotas and Allocations in the WMU in which we hunt suggest that it should not be possible to draw a cow tag for entrants in the Pool 2 group. Contrary to this we found that our party was drawing such tags from this pool. In some cases more than one. This is how we looked at it. Number of cow tags in the quota less the number of applicants in Pool 1, choice 1, less the number of applicants in Pool 1 choice 2. When the latter two numbers exceed the quota there technically should not be anything left for Pool 2 applicants. How then does this explain how we were able on several occasions to draw cow tags from the Pool 2 applicants. When queried about this the MNR staff were never able to give a understandable explanation.
By using the shotgun approach to making applications we were unable to forecast how many tags we might get. In light of this we made our applications and accepted the results even if they were greater than we thought possible or were more than we wanted.
Possibly the MNR system makes sense if we had all the information and guidelines their staff are working with. Since we don't we have to blunder along and accept our good fortune. Hopefully this explains our reasoning a little better.
Jim
In view of this we found making individual applications resulted in us obtaining more tags than we might have gotten otherwise. What we were looking for was the way which was most likely to produce some tags for us. Analysis of the numbers shown in the Adult Moose Tag Draw Gun Quotas and Allocations in the WMU in which we hunt suggest that it should not be possible to draw a cow tag for entrants in the Pool 2 group. Contrary to this we found that our party was drawing such tags from this pool. In some cases more than one. This is how we looked at it. Number of cow tags in the quota less the number of applicants in Pool 1, choice 1, less the number of applicants in Pool 1 choice 2. When the latter two numbers exceed the quota there technically should not be anything left for Pool 2 applicants. How then does this explain how we were able on several occasions to draw cow tags from the Pool 2 applicants. When queried about this the MNR staff were never able to give a understandable explanation.
By using the shotgun approach to making applications we were unable to forecast how many tags we might get. In light of this we made our applications and accepted the results even if they were greater than we thought possible or were more than we wanted.
Possibly the MNR system makes sense if we had all the information and guidelines their staff are working with. Since we don't we have to blunder along and accept our good fortune. Hopefully this explains our reasoning a little better.
Jim
My explanation is not making an impact... you received tags in Pool 2 because the current years stats allowed for tags to reach Pool 2, Choice 1... you were looking at the previous years stats.
Again, it is ALWAYS better to apply as a group, or groups if you desire more than one tag... Pool 2 applicants can apply with Pool 1 applicants in a group but are not included in Pool 1 drawings... if you want two tags, apply in two groups, if you want three tags apply in three groups... this guarantees that you do not, by virtue of random chance, receive more tags than required and thereby depriving fellow sportsmen of the opportunity to hunt... that is not on the MNR, that is on hunters who do not use the system properly.
Note; Even applying as a group, if unsuccessful in the group allocation you are AUTOMATICALLY entered in the individual draw anyway... there is no downside.
Jim, glad you received tags, have a great hunt... consider recommending to your group that they apply in groups in the future... do it for yourselves and for other sportsmen.
Again, it is ALWAYS better to apply as a group, or groups if you desire more than one tag... Pool 2 applicants can apply with Pool 1 applicants in a group but are not included in Pool 1 drawings... if you want two tags, apply in two groups, if you want three tags apply in three groups... this guarantees that you do not, by virtue of random chance, receive more tags than required and thereby depriving fellow sportsmen of the opportunity to hunt... that is not on the MNR, that is on hunters who do not use the system properly.
Note; Even applying as a group, if unsuccessful in the group allocation you are AUTOMATICALLY entered in the individual draw anyway... there is no downside.
Jim, glad you received tags, have a great hunt... consider recommending to your group that they apply in groups in the future... do it for yourselves and for other sportsmen.
As stated in post 19 all this becomes academic to me now since this is the last year I will be hunting moose due to my age. Others will have to take over the application process and I will leave it to them as to how they want to handle it. Hope every one has a good season this year.
Jim
Jim
The system is flawed. I have seen the same issues as Jim. I have a cottage in a WMU north of SSM .We hunted there for 27 years. We always applied as a group ( 8-9 individuals)and missed out on the adult validation tags for several years in a row. However, other groups that we know where always getting tags even one member in pool 2 that was just applying to get into pool 1 the following year. This happened on more than one occasion (different person, different group). Another group we know always applied as individuals and were always drawing tags. When I asked how they got so lucky, the group leader said their secret was to apply as individuals. I called the MNR to ask for an explanation. They said that it was impossible for a pool 2 applicant to receive a tag in that WMU and those groups applying individually and receiving tags were just luckier than ours. I don't believe their explanation. I have seen to much contradictory evidence. We since moved to a WMU in Northwest Ontario to try to increase our success at receiving a tag. We were not successful this year. I called the MNR to get this years stats and the stats did not support the results. The published G G size was 7. Based on the number of applicants and tags available per the MNR, the GG size should have been 5 (605/129=4.7). The large group size should have been 4 (our group consisted of 4 p1c1 and we should have received a tag but did not. By the way stats were flawed similarly last year and I called them to point it out and they did not have an explanation). The point being that if the system wasn't flawed people would not resort to "trying to beat it". The MNR has had many years to fix it. We started hunting with a group of 8-9 individuals, last year were down to 4, probably 0 this year because of no tags,increased cost, increased travel time and rearranging vacation schedules. They are slowly achieving their objective.
None of that changes the reality of my point... I'm certain there are "glitches" in the system... I experienced one myself a few years ago... but still, every hunting party should apply as a group or groups, based on the number of tags that they hope to receive... applying individually is foolish and only hurts other hunters and possibly your own chances in subsequent draws.
That is my point. They have had many years to fix the system and make it better for everyone and they choose not too. The MNR must know about the flaws. I am sure that I am not the only one that calls to point them out. A programmer could fix these issues as they are identified. It would be great if more groups were satisfied. If so, people/groups would not feel the need to beat the system and, overall, there would be more satisfied hunters. If people thought the system was fair, more people would apply as a group. We still only apply as group for 1 tag but I understand the frustration.
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
The system is screwed big-time. There are surplus tags left when they should all be gone to the groups that applied. People are applying as individuals based on their experience in getting tags this way when the group application has failed them. The ministry wants maximum licences bought, but to minimize the harvest. If it was a fair system people would support the efforts at conservation. I would prefer not shooting cows or calves, but yet where we apply there is a lower guaranteed group size for cows than bulls??? You seldom see calves unless they are with the cow, or the cow has already been shot. The only people I hear of who are successful in hunting calves do so in areas where moose drives are feasible. If the ministry would be honest with hunters and listen to AND RESPOND to their input, it would be better for everyone. they call it the Ministry of No Response for a reason.
I agree with bushwhacker completely. I just got off the phone with the ministry looking for an explanation. Talk about going in circles. Yes, they agreed with my point, but ..."that is the way the biologist set it up" ... and "they only review it every 5-6 years". She gave me the biologist's number... I called, no answer, just mail box. I know my calling will not change anything. I like the that slogan..."Ministry of No Response".
In Ontario WMU #49, our 15 member group applied for a bull tag. Nothing again. 4th year in a row. Every year we see more and more moose during the deer hunt. Anecdotably speaking, there doesn't seem to be problem in 49 with moose numbers!
It appears the MNR is applying the same biologist standards from the north to our WMU.
It appears the MNR is applying the same biologist standards from the north to our WMU.
I too hunt 49 and agree totally with your comment. I think nearly every day last fall during the deer hunt someone in the group saw a moose and definitely not always the same moose.
It's all about arithmetic.
A dead moose is a dead moose no matter who or what killed it.
We almost had to shame the government to face the fact that an overabundance of black bears was having a deleterious effect on the moose population.
They finally restored a hobbled version of the spring bear season a quarter century after the spineless Harris government caved under pressure from a do gooder group and cancelled the spring bear hunt.
And then there's the moose being shot by those supposedly living an indigenous "off the land" lifestyle.
Whether the cowardly governments want to admit it or not a moose killed by a black bear or and Indian is still a dead moose.
In wmu 28 where our hunting cabin is there are less than 30 adult moose tags issued last year and the outfitter camps were not issued any tags.
Chances are paw and I at our age will never hunt adult moose in Ontario again.
THE FACE OF POLITICAL COWARDICE
The negative factors I mentioned were allowed to get out of hand and the moose population plummeted while politically correct and cowardly politicians and bureaucrats covered their eyes until the situation got too desperate to ignore.
A dead moose is a dead moose no matter who or what killed it.
We almost had to shame the government to face the fact that an overabundance of black bears was having a deleterious effect on the moose population.
They finally restored a hobbled version of the spring bear season a quarter century after the spineless Harris government caved under pressure from a do gooder group and cancelled the spring bear hunt.
And then there's the moose being shot by those supposedly living an indigenous "off the land" lifestyle.
Whether the cowardly governments want to admit it or not a moose killed by a black bear or and Indian is still a dead moose.
In wmu 28 where our hunting cabin is there are less than 30 adult moose tags issued last year and the outfitter camps were not issued any tags.
Chances are paw and I at our age will never hunt adult moose in Ontario again.
THE FACE OF POLITICAL COWARDICE
The negative factors I mentioned were allowed to get out of hand and the moose population plummeted while politically correct and cowardly politicians and bureaucrats covered their eyes until the situation got too desperate to ignore.
I think that decision has already been made for us in many Ontario WMUs like where we hunt ... WMU 28.
We still have the privilege of donating to the province every year though our chances of being successful in the draw for an adult tag are less than the 649 lottery.
Hunting outfitters in WMU 28 are being hit hard with no tags for long term clients who are now going elsewhere.
Political correctness and cowardice that resulted in a blind eye to the problems until the moose population declined to critical levels.
Disgusting and shameful.
We won't be voting PC in Ontario ever again after the Harris government got bought by a do-gooders conservation group and cancelled the spring bear season back in the 90s. They turned out to be worse than the Liberals who amazingly saw the light and restored the spring bear hunting season which should take some of the predatory pressure off the moose population.
Trimmer 905
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The OMNRF will never address the inequities in the Selective Harvest Tag Draw until hunters completely abandon Ontario's Moose hunt,tag sales collapse,revenue dropping to near zero with tourism taking a catastrophic hit that translates into votes from PO'd hunters and people who lose businesses that are tied to it.
You don't even get a full season of calf hunting anymore if you're unsuccessful in the adult moose draw.
Paw has always been pretty lucky on the moose calves.
He went a stretch of popping 4 calves in a row from 2002 to 2005 incl.
Not many hunters can say that.
He's not impressed that he can't hunt calves for the whole moose season if he strikes out in the adult draw.
Neither of us drew adult tags this year.
Hope there are lots of ruffed grouse ... I like hunting those better than anything ... not a dull moment when the bird crop is healthy and you have a dozen or more flushes a day.
Paw has always been pretty lucky on the moose calves.
He went a stretch of popping 4 calves in a row from 2002 to 2005 incl.
Not many hunters can say that.
He's not impressed that he can't hunt calves for the whole moose season if he strikes out in the adult draw.
Neither of us drew adult tags this year.
Hope there are lots of ruffed grouse ... I like hunting those better than anything ... not a dull moment when the bird crop is healthy and you have a dozen or more flushes a day.
