Opinions on makes please....

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galamb

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I am in the process or replacing/retiring my collection of pre-1960 built hunting rifles.

For the past number of years my 740 Remington 30.06 has been my "go to" gun for deer and moose hunting and it has served well, but it's getting tired. I am beginning to move to more "species specific" rifles that suit my hunting style.

My first acquisition was a Weatherby Vanguard II chambered in 243 win - love the rifle, shoots better than I ever will and suits my smaller caliber needs.

Now in the market for a little more firepower. But, to prevent my question from turning into a discussion about what caliber is best etc, I will leave that out - I WILL pick a caliber that has the required terminal ballistics for how I intend to use it but am more interested in pros/cons for the following brands/models - I would like the good, bad and ugly.

So what I am currently considering is (along with another Weatherby):

1) Thompson Center Venture
2) Remington Mod 700
3) Savage Mod 11/111
4) Browning X-Bolt

I will have the opportunity to shoulder (but not fire) all the models before I ultimately decide, just really looking to find out if there is one or more that I should OR shouldn't even bother considering.

So I throw the question out to the vast experience of the contributors to this board -

I reload so prefer a bolt gun, just easier/less finicky to load for.

Also prefer a longer barrel (min 22", 24" is better) and weight is not a factor - my VGII tips the scales a touch north of 8 1/2 lbs (unloaded) - not too much to carry, and holds extremely well - so not interested in sub 7lb rifles that will only add to the felt recoil in the caliber I choose.

Thanks in advance..
 
I would go with another vanguard S2. You've seen yourself how good they are. They are an incredible value for the money spent.
I say vanguard because I have tried to get on the remington band wagon and I just can't. They just don't feel like quality to me. I have owned 3 savages and they work very well but they are rough and unrefined. I have developed loads for 2 of my friends x-bolts and they are comfy to hold for me but I hated the triggers and, from what I can see, they seem very over engineered. Much of my hate for browning stems from that stupid magazine/ bottom metal on the A-bolt.

The vanguard on the other hand has everything in the right quantities and leaves very little wanting.
 
In a two locking lug bolt action the 700 is the strongest, safest action that has ever been made.

All the 3 lug actions are about equal.
 
The 2 I would scratch off that list are the TC venture and remington 700. As many people like the 700's and swear by them, they arent the same as they were 20 years ago. The quality has gone to junk on them. I might be a little biased as I have had a couple remingtons that didnt shoot worth s*** and had to reef on the action to cycle it even when there were no rounds in there. I have 2 model 11 savages 1 in 223 and 1 in 243 and can say they are both very accurate rifles for the money. twice the rifle as the axis for another $150.stocks are a little iffy for a synthetic but still not horrible. Never shot an x-bolt but heard good things about them, little pricey but if money isnt an option then go hard. I think the weatherbys are also a very good choice, have one in 22-250 and shes a tack driver. Smooth action too. My favourite rifle Ive owned and still do own is a new FN winchester model 70 coyote lite. Nothin but good things, to say, fit and finish is unreal, trigger is light and crisp, sub moa with any shells ive shot so far, action is as smooth as a tikka. The coyote lite is a little pricey but the featherwight model is the same as an x-bolt and the ultimate shadow is a little less then that. Good luck and Happy New Year!
 
guntech said:
In a two locking lug bolt action the 700 is the strongest, safest action that has ever been made.

All the 3 lug actions are about equal.
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Would you care to elaborate with facts that support your argument? I am no expert but I can't see how a 700 action could be any stronger than a Vangaurd action or a savage 110 or model 70' etc.
I am not trying to start a fight or anything, but I have seen you type those words many times without going into any kind of detail as to why.
If you give me the facts then I will jump on the wagon, but until then(from what I see and have read) the Vangaurd looks to be just as strong if not stronger.
 
One thought to consider is to try to have "a matched set" of firearms in calibers which you want/need.
This way you become very familiar with your actions, rifle weights , handling characteristics and safeties.
I even go as far as having the same scope model on all my rifles......Same trigger pull weight on all is also desired.
In this way, when the opportunity presents itself for that shot of the season, you are very familiar with whatever rifle is in your hands.
Chances of making a smooth and precise shot are good.
In your case, as you like the Weatherby, another in the same model- different caliber might be helpful.
For me it is the Tikka model 55/65 series.
 
I would recommend another Vanguard s2 as well. Maybe change up the stock to wood if you have composite now or vise versa just to seem a bit different. I have an s2 Lazermark and it is awesome. I was thinking maybe getting an all weather composite copy for les than perfect conditions. Hate to take the lazermark through the thick stuff or rain. Just a side note, I have owned every gun you mentioned and many more. All work and shoot well but the s2 just blew me away with the trigger, smooth feeding, fit and finish and best of all accurate as hell.
 
blueoval56 said:
Would you care to elaborate with facts that support your argument? I am no expert but I can't see how a 700 action could be any stronger than a Vangaurd action or a savage 110 or model 70' etc.
I am not trying to start a fight or anything, but I have seen you type those words many times without going into any kind of detail as to why.
If you give me the facts then I will jump on the wagon, but until then(from what I see and have read) the Vangaurd looks to be just as strong if not stronger.
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It all has to do with the unique extractor system of the Remington 700...

It's the fully enclosed Remington extractor enclosed within the bolt nose, which is enclosed within the end of the barrel, which is enclosed within the receiver. Remington advertises it as the 3 rings of steel... and it isn't just advertising. When a case has a catastrophic case failure, it is mostly contained and often the case does not fail as there is no place for the flowing brass to go. I have seen a .303 British fired in a 700 7mm Rem Mag and the bullet went out the barrel, the case fire formed into a 7mm Mag case at the rear and the front appeared shorter than it should be (because of fire forming an incorrect case) and the bolt was unable to be opened... until I removed the barrel, removed the case and reassembled the barrel and checked the headspace... nothing was wrong with the rifle and it continued on it's way. There is no other 2 lug bolt action that can stand up to that. They will all blow their extractors out the bolt race way and worse. Once gas escapes a ruptured case all hell breaks loose. This is another reason why I am against the partial installation of the Sako style extractor in a 700. It completely destroys the integrity of the original design... and being a partial installation of the Sako extractor system isn't any where as safe as a Sako. These guys installing the Sako extractor do not install any protection behind the extractor as Sako does... you can refer to it as a bolt guide but it is there to deflect debris from the shooter if a case ruptures. Here is a picture of a Sako showing just how well that 'bolt guide' did it's job.

3 lug bolt actions - the extractor is behind a locking lug recess and there is no easy way for it to blow out down the race way into your face.

If you get a chance look at a 700 action and bolt when the barrel is off... place the end of the bolt in a barrel and see how it is fully contained...

243blowupaction-0.jpg
 
I appreciate the reply Guntec, and it makes sense.

Just to play devil's advocate here, Weatherby also advertises the "3 rings of steel" concept with their vanguards. From your explanation, I realize that it is not quite as contained due to the M-16 style extractor essentially cutting a hole in one of the rings of steel. But is it really that much to worry about? The fact that there are gas vents in the bolt to vent away from the shooters face makes me feel pretty warm and fuzzy. Do you see the Vangaurd design less safe by a wide margin or by the slightest of margins?
 
Remington advertises...

You got that right! Advertises... It is the same Remington which had to recall millions of the Model 700 for triggers, isn't it? All that steel and expense went to the bolt design I gather, no pennies left for a trigger. "Remington advertises" for f sake.

Did they advertise how their barrels blow up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AqMl1A4aQ All good steel went to the action I believe.

"Once gas escapes a ruptured case all hell breaks loose."
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Paul Mauser solved that problem 50 years before the dear Remington Model 700 even appeared, traded an eye for that. Where was Remington Model 700 when Mr Nagant and Capt. Mosin made that unkillable beast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiXFyIbOZw. Load .308 with pistol powder like these guys did and see how far the bits of your Remington "3 rings of steel" fly away.

strongest, safest action that has ever been made.
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Steyr SBS has a bushing which encloses the bolt head would that be 4 rings for steel, probably not safe with 4 lugs? German M98 mausers from mid war have better steel than that off the shelf Rem 700, and more machining too. Rusted Mosins run fine after 100 years of neglect. Sako TGR has 3 lugs and OMG sako style extractor. Stupid unsafe inferior rifles those TRG. Accuracy International - stupid british, shoot 50 bmg and 338 lapua with 3 lugs and omg make hole in the bolt face for the extractor.

But fear not, there is Remington 700. Which is complete junk from the factory so it needs action to be trued, half of junk replaced, gunsmith love and then its is "best even made". Right. Let's here about "battle proven" like M24 is even close to the off the shelve Rem700.

Remington 700 was designed and still is cheap to make cut the cost affair. Yet the Remington itself make it so ####ty that practically ANY custom small shop can do a Remington style action better from CNC. I don't even mentioned quality and design that germans can do now with barrel locking 6 lugs actions which require zero hand fitting ever.
 
galamb said:
My first acquisition was a Weatherby Vanguard II chambered in 243 win - love the rifle, shoots better than I ever will and suits my smaller caliber needs.
..
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Get yourself another Weatherby or Howa. If you like the brand name get the weatherby. Howa does some different versions of what is the same gun as the Vanguard under thier own name. You can see them at Legacy Sports on line. They have a variety of barrel lengths and even some lightweight models. If you like the vanguard its a good choice. Prophet River on here usually has a few in stock, or could order you one.
 
owlowl said:
Remington advertises...

You got that right! Advertises... It is the same Remington which had to recall millions of the Model 700 for triggers, isn't it? All that steel and expense went to the bolt design I gather, no pennies left for a trigger. "Remington advertises" for f sake.

Did they advertise how their barrels blow up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AqMl1A4aQ All good steel went to the action I believe.



Paul Mauser solved that problem 50 years before the dear Remington Model 700 even appeared, traded an eye for that. Where was Remington Model 700 when Mr Nagant and Capt. Mosin made that unkillable beast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiXFyIbOZw. Load .308 with pistol powder like these guys did and see how far the bits of your Remington "3 rings of steel" fly away.


Steyr SBS has a bushing which encloses the bolt head would that be 4 rings for steel, probably not safe with 4 lugs? German M98 mausers from mid war have better steel than that off the shelf Rem 700, and more machining too. Rusted Mosins run fine after 100 years of neglect. Sako TGR has 3 lugs and OMG sako style extractor. Stupid unsafe inferior rifles those TRG. Accuracy International - stupid british, shoot 50 bmg and 338 lapua with 3 lugs and omg make hole in the bolt face for the extractor.

But fear not, there is Remington 700. Which is complete junk from the factory so it needs action to be trued, half of junk replaced, gunsmith love and then its is "best even made". Right. Let's here about "battle proven" like M24 is even close to the off the shelve Rem700.

Remington 700 was designed and still is cheap to make cut the cost affair. Yet the Remington itself make it so ####ty that practically ANY custom small shop can do a Remington style action better from CNC. I don't even mentioned quality and design that germans can do now with barrel locking 6 lugs actions which require zero hand fitting ever.
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Why don't you just say you do not like Remington Rifles and leave it at that?

No one wants to hear your diatribe, particularly those of us who like and have used this particular design since it's inception.

The fact that many very expensive custom actions copy the Remington design, using the Remington Trigger mounting system, and many of their bolts are clones as well speaks for the soundness of that design.

Nothing wrong with the Mosins, Mausers, Arisakas, Enfields, etc, but they are just what they are. non-refined military actions.

I have probably shot close to 400,000 rounds through Remington 700/40X actions, from the 22 rimfire to the 458 Win Mag. It is still my action of choice if I decide to build something unique or I need a new barrel and want to change the chambering [or not].

To the O.P......don't let guys like owlowl discourage you from buying a Remington 700. There have been some QC issues over the past while, but think of the number of 700's that are sold.
A comparatively small number are problem children, and Remington is "pulling up" their socks in the present.
Your S2 Vanguard is also a great choice, BTW. I would avoid Savage and Browning, personally, but am not going to "slag" them here.

Regards, Dave.
 
Excellent posts, thanks and keep them coming.

Pete G, thanks for pointing out something so obvious (keeping the models the same so they handle/feel/shoot the same) that I had totally over-looked that as a consideration.

Cost is not a significant consideration, at least 2-300 bucks one way or the other. I am fortunate enough to be able to buy my rifles "wholesale" so the cost of Weatherby VGII Sporter (Walnut) is within 10 bucks of the cost of a Rem 700 SPS (in the Camo or Woodtech or black stock stainless versions). The Browning option would be about 150 bucks more and the T/C, Wby VGII synthetics and Savage models I listed about 100 less - so all "in the ball park".

If Howa had a configuration/caliber that I was after I absolutely would consider that (since Howa built a good chunk of my Wby). It's just the wholesaler we deal with has a somewhat limited line of Howa's (perhaps as to not conflict too much with their Wby line which is extensive). If I buy "outside" of my suppliers (order guns for the place I work at), then I'm paying retail - and for the most part, retail gun prices are up there with government taxes - take lots of your money for minimal added value :)

Do appreciate the posts, keep 'em coming - thanks..

(P.S. My 740 Remington, built in 1957 has, in it's working life, taken over two dozen moose and at least 30 deer which is why the Rem 700 is in the "lineup" - I have heard of some of the issues, but as some have stated, just about everything can have problems. I do like the raised cheek found on the Rem's/Wby's which keeps them at the front of the line)
 
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Dave, I mean no offense. But saying "I had great experience with something" is one thing.

Making a claim "it is best, safest, most advanced and thought through" is another. It is simply not true.

Remington made specific effort to make cheaper action with 700 than "non-refined military actions". Cheaper, not better. It works - yes. People know all about it and there is a million of aftermarket things - yes. Best or safest or advanced? Not a chance. All I'm saying. Its like SKS is a fine rifle for $200 and cheap ammo, awesome. Would it be more awesome than Sig 550 or FN Scar for $4k? Not so much.
 
Ruger M77... IMO the best bang for your buck... and you should at least consider it and handle one.
 
I just plain "don't like" the look of the Ruger's. We have the Ruger Americans with Redfield scope combo's - price is good, like the optics, but just can't take the overall look of the rifle, which is why they are not a consideration at all.
 
owlowl said:
Dave, I mean no offense. But saying "I had great experience with something" is one thing.

Making a claim "it is best, safest, most advanced and thought through" is another. It is simply not true.

Remington made specific effort to make cheaper action with 700 than "non-refined military actions". Cheaper, not better. It works - yes. People know all about it and there is a million of aftermarket things - yes. Best or safest or advanced? Not a chance. All I'm saying. Its like SKS is a fine rifle for $200 and cheap ammo, awesome. Would it be more awesome than Sig 550 or FN Scar for $4k? Not so much.
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Well, comparing a $1K Remington to a $4K rifle is a bit unfair, IMHO. [ FYI, Guntech is a very fine Gunsmith, who has probably seen more action failures than any of us on here.]
However, the 700 action has been proven over the years, and while I personally have not experienced a real "booboo" with one, I have several acquaintances who have truly put them to the "test"
They are really capable of containing a catastrophic case failure [for whatever reason] and still allowing the shooter to escape without serious injury.

I have a 22-250 case here that actually has a "belt" on it from overpressure....it needed a new bolt, but the shooter was unaware of how serious the pressures were until he tried to open the bolt unsuccessfully. Needed a new bolt, and headspace check, but he is still shooting this rifle 10 years after the fact.

I would not be calling the 700 the most "advanced" action, nor the "best" action, but it remains one of the safest actions available at a reasonable cost.
FWIW, I own Ruger 77's, Vanguards, P14's, a Ross M10, one Savage M11, a M721 and a Winchester 70, so am not absolutely cemented to the 700.

However, I am not blowing smoke out my rear end here....I have seen a number of actions that were reduced to scrap from mistakes made by reloaders. [One was a pre-64 M70 300 H&H, sob!]

When I have some time to relate it, I will tell a story about wrong powder mixup that basically destroyed 3 rifles, but the 4th one, a 700 survived.

Regards, Dave
 
galamb said:
If Howa had a configuration/caliber that I was after I absolutely would consider that (since Howa built a good chunk of my Wby). It's just the wholesaler we deal with has a somewhat limited line of Howa's (perhaps as to not conflict too much with their Wby line which is extensive). If I buy "outside" of my suppliers (order guns for the place I work at), then I'm paying retail - and for the most part, retail gun prices are up there with government taxes - take lots of your money for minimal added value :)

(P.S. My 740 Remington, built in 1957 has, in it's working life, taken over two dozen moose and at least 30 deer which is why the Rem 700 is in the "lineup" - I have heard of some of the issues, but as some have stated, just about everything can have problems. I do like the raised cheek found on the Rem's/Wby's which keeps them at the front of the line)
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Well if you like the autoloader how about another. Maybe a BAR or another choice. You cant beat a BAR in 300wm. Even a used BAR with a tune-up will run for years. Mind you the mag system does suck.
 
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