Opinions on makes please....
- Thread starter galamb
- Start date
I meant that as two separate thoughts - first, I don't like the look of Rugers "period". I then stated that we have a specific scoped model at a decent price but that doesn't move me because I don't like the look of that model either. I don't see much difference in the overall shape/style between the Hawkeye and the American. Ok, the American has those (scallops) in the forestock, but the lines look the same to me and I just find them "un-appealing".
I did briefly consider the BAR's but a little more than I want to spend for "this rifle purchase". A BLR (pistol grip - which I find a super visually appealing rifle) chambered in 270 WSM will follow this rifle (when I decide), but that will be "just because I want it" not because I have a specific need. I could go with a Rem 750 and essentially (nearly exactly) replace my 740, but I just find it easier to reload for a bolt - less finicky (only have to neck size, can fiddle with low end charges etc).
Don't recall reading any specific comments about the Thompson Center's (Venture)- nobody own/shoot them? I have never even handled one so have no opinion one way or the other - they come in at the same price point as the Rem 700 SPS and somewhat more than the Vanguard II Syn's, just wondering if they are a quality piece (understanding that the models I listed are just one notch up from the entry level offerings) or just "over priced" for what you get (????)
I did briefly consider the BAR's but a little more than I want to spend for "this rifle purchase". A BLR (pistol grip - which I find a super visually appealing rifle) chambered in 270 WSM will follow this rifle (when I decide), but that will be "just because I want it" not because I have a specific need. I could go with a Rem 750 and essentially (nearly exactly) replace my 740, but I just find it easier to reload for a bolt - less finicky (only have to neck size, can fiddle with low end charges etc).
Don't recall reading any specific comments about the Thompson Center's (Venture)- nobody own/shoot them? I have never even handled one so have no opinion one way or the other - they come in at the same price point as the Rem 700 SPS and somewhat more than the Vanguard II Syn's, just wondering if they are a quality piece (understanding that the models I listed are just one notch up from the entry level offerings) or just "over priced" for what you get (????)
Graham, here is my very limited take on the venture, Ive got about 30 rounds through it now so take it for what its worth. Me , I like it probably better than a savage / ruger american / sps. Its actually a slick little rifle.
I did load some woodleigh 180 ppsn's over RL 17 and shot another two 3 shot groups with it the other day. .650" and .735" for 3 rounds @ 105 yds. There is however more to a hunting rifle than shooting groups off a bench and personally I think you should handle all of the potential contenders if you can, shoulder them , run the bolt a few times and then decide for yourself.
Asking for advice on this forum is like walking through a minefield some days
some of the bouncing bettys are wired together pretty well and you never know how many are gonna come up and explode when you do plant your foot in their sand.
I too would recommend another Vanguard 2 , whole lotta rifle for the price.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1166960-Today-s-budget-rifles
I did load some woodleigh 180 ppsn's over RL 17 and shot another two 3 shot groups with it the other day. .650" and .735" for 3 rounds @ 105 yds. There is however more to a hunting rifle than shooting groups off a bench and personally I think you should handle all of the potential contenders if you can, shoulder them , run the bolt a few times and then decide for yourself.
Asking for advice on this forum is like walking through a minefield some days
some of the bouncing bettys are wired together pretty well and you never know how many are gonna come up and explode when you do plant your foot in their sand.
I too would recommend another Vanguard 2 , whole lotta rifle for the price.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1166960-Today-s-budget-rifles
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Since you already have a Vanguard II in 243 and are happy with it why not consider another Vanguard with a bit more horsepower ?
I have been using a Vanguard II in 7mm Rem. Mag. and its an excellent rifle so I decided to get a Howa 1500 short barreled rifle in 375 Ruger to go along with it and I couldn't be happier with both.
Since they share the same action the controls are similar and they both shoot very well..
I have been using a Vanguard II in 7mm Rem. Mag. and its an excellent rifle so I decided to get a Howa 1500 short barreled rifle in 375 Ruger to go along with it and I couldn't be happier with both.
Since they share the same action the controls are similar and they both shoot very well..
I choose to ignore the ridiculous rant that was posted. You can't intelligently discuss drivel.
On 2 lug bolt actions I think the 700 extractor is superior... I don't know by what margin... if you think of the brass case as a gasket (which really is it's biggest purpose) containing the pressure within the barrel so it is all released out the muzzle... no other extractor system offers the support that prevent the case from rupturing as well as the 700. I think the Winchester push feed extractor in the locking lug and in similar actions is better than the Sako style... but not as good and as safe as the 700.
Bolt nose barrel interface of the 700
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I did handle the 11/111 Savage today. The bolt was smooth and the trigger is nice (not nice like the 2 stage on my Vanguard II, but nice none the less). I liked the weight and it felt good holding it BUT what I kinda couldn't get past was the completely hollow butt stock. When you rap your knuckles on it, it sounds like you are banging on an empty 5 gallon plastic pail.
Now without shooting it, that is really my only criticism - am curious if you could pull the recoil pad and fill the buttstock with expanding foam or something to give it some extra rigidity and a "solid" sound (????)
And BwanaDave, thanks for the initial take on the T/C - I should have a couple in stock in a few weeks (end Jan) and will give them a good look over. I agree there is more than "bench accuracy" - I only need "minute of Bambi or Bullwinkle" - I have clamped my 243 and got sub .5" @ 100, but I can't hold better than about 1 1/2" front supported (too much coffee
) - and my hunting shots are almost never more than 100 yards (and usually half that or less). I don't think there is a rifle on the market today that "wouldn't" be accurate enough for my needs, so it really more is about visual appeal (and ya, that's personal) and "known issues/problems".
Over the next year I will probably pick up 2 or 3 rifles and another VGII is definitely on the list (want a Walnut version that will only come out on nice days at the range) and have always wanted a Browning (specifically a pistol grip BLR), but don't want to overlook the X-bolt or the other options if they feel/look good.
Thanks for the replies - keep them coming if you have something to add. I also sell rifles (at work), so your opinions can be shared when someone comes in asking me a question. And even if I don't particularly like the model, I can pass along some facts/experiences of others.
Now without shooting it, that is really my only criticism - am curious if you could pull the recoil pad and fill the buttstock with expanding foam or something to give it some extra rigidity and a "solid" sound (????)
And BwanaDave, thanks for the initial take on the T/C - I should have a couple in stock in a few weeks (end Jan) and will give them a good look over. I agree there is more than "bench accuracy" - I only need "minute of Bambi or Bullwinkle" - I have clamped my 243 and got sub .5" @ 100, but I can't hold better than about 1 1/2" front supported (too much coffee
) - and my hunting shots are almost never more than 100 yards (and usually half that or less). I don't think there is a rifle on the market today that "wouldn't" be accurate enough for my needs, so it really more is about visual appeal (and ya, that's personal) and "known issues/problems".Over the next year I will probably pick up 2 or 3 rifles and another VGII is definitely on the list (want a Walnut version that will only come out on nice days at the range) and have always wanted a Browning (specifically a pistol grip BLR), but don't want to overlook the X-bolt or the other options if they feel/look good.
Thanks for the replies - keep them coming if you have something to add. I also sell rifles (at work), so your opinions can be shared when someone comes in asking me a question. And even if I don't particularly like the model, I can pass along some facts/experiences of others.
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Which wholesale? That's a great price!
Here's the link (I keep an eye on the competition)
http://www.wholesalesports.com/stor...action-rifles/c10-c101-c10102-b101165-p1.html
I looked at Tikka but passed because at my price point 1) the lite and super lite models are "way" lighter than I want in a rifle - not wanting anything less than 7 pounds and 7 1/2 lbs "without" the scope in mounts is better 2) the Tikka would be my most expensive option, even comparing a synthetic Tikka to a wood stocked Browning or even a BLR for that matter - both of which I could get cheaper than any Tikka model.
And while I will pay a premium if it is worth it, I just don't see the Tikka outperforming the Browning/Wby/Remington's to any significant extent (and some would argue they don't even come to par with one or more of them).
I know that light and ultra-light rifles are the rage, but I have no time for them. If I want to get kicked in the shoulder by a mule I can walk into the farm field behind my house, I don't have to spend a grand for a rifle to do that for me.
I want my (assembled) combo to come in the 8 1/2 to 9 pound range (with scope and mag loaded), and if it goes over 9 lbs by a bit, that's fine too.
Well my combo is just over 8.5 lbs. and the action is silk, feels good in hand. Worth checking it out for the price. I believe the tikka out classes all of the brands you are looking at but. That is MHO and if you believe the others are better? Then I respect that.
Remington 700 is as basic as it could be. All the design choices they made have nothing to do with any advanced safety. Zero. This company during design of this "safest design thing" declined 5.5 cent extra cost on triggers THEY KNEW was problematic. Took them 50 years and how many dead and injured? A claim that they specifically made something for more safety instead of cheaper production on Rem 700 is against the evidence.
Full containment of a pressure of a ruptured case IS NOT POSSIBLE with any bolt action on the market. Extractor or no extractor - Rem 700 will not contain the gas if the casing blows up the gas will go through the firing pin back from the chamber. What difference does it make?
Again, since Paul Mauser lost an eye for an exploded case - ALL BOLT ACTIONS currently are designed to move the gas safely from the face into the side or into the magazine in case of case rupture. ALL of them are specifically made to handle that. What difference Rem 700 makes? Looks safer?
Tikka T3 bolt is 2 lugs. Has sako extractor. Cheap starting rifle for Sako. Has an EXTRA grove around the bolt lugs to capture and redirect gas. Who saved costs who though of safety, take a guess. Never heard of "truing" T3 actions by the way, all are fine out of the box.
Savage - 2 lug bolt. More complicated yet sells around Rem 700. Are you saying Savage bolts are less safe by design too because they don't have Rem 700 extractor?
Vanguard 2 - 2 lug bolt. Has vents for the gas, has more machining and cost that Rem 700. Who saved on cost who tested for safety, lets take another guess.
The list goes on. Rem 700 works, it is cheap enough and simplest action on the market. Thousands copies, parts and experience for 50 years. Yes. So what? Remington is a company of greedy corporate CEOs who don't care about anything but bottom line. Remington 700 happens to be a good example of them succeeding. A big part of it - blind faith in marketing pitch by many in spite of evidence.
And as I said before. If you think 2 lug bolt, especially Rem 700 bolt is a outstanding design you are missing about 60 years of progress.
Hater's got to hate LOL!
I have many brands of rifles including a few Remington 700's and never had any problem with any of them including their triggers.
Galamb,,,check out the Tradex website,,they have a number of quality husq, ph's, Brnos and old Fns for sale,,,
The new Win m70s are good as well,
Aside from make, fit and feel of the rifle is most important, so handle as many as you can before buying,,
The new Win m70s are good as well,
Aside from make, fit and feel of the rifle is most important, so handle as many as you can before buying,,
First the containment of gases after a case ruptures is not possible... so if you can prevent the case from rupturing you are far better off... and that's one thing the 700 extractor system excels at. Next, if a case ruptures, where is the extractor going to be blown to? In the case of the 700 - no where.
Second - about Savage extractors... read again what I said... "I think the Winchester push feed extractor in the locking lug and in similar actions is better than the Sako style... but not as good and as safe as the 700".
Third - If you don't realize the huge advantages of the 700 design that's because you are blinded for some reason by a hate. You continue to rant inaccuracies about Remington. Why don't you start your own Remington hate thread?
Since there seems to be a secondary thread working it's way through my original post, I have a question or two here.
Are you saying that the 700 actions are safe and the others are somehow "dangerous" OR are you saying they are all relatively or extremely safe but in the event of a catastrophic failure, the other actions would fail and possibly/probably cause injury whereas the 700 would not OR that in the event of a catastrophic failure the actions besides the 700 may or may not fail, the 700 is just the "least likely" to fail.
Not trying to be smart A$$ here, am honestly interested.
And would these concerns be warranted if a shooter kept to factory loaded ammunition (and what I'm getting at, if the odds of a case rupture are infinitesimal how important is it that action A would survive better than action B, when it would unlikely ever be put to such a severe test)
Or is this something that is of more concern to a reloader (which I do), that is constantly pushing the envelope (which I don't do)?
Are you saying that the 700 actions are safe and the others are somehow "dangerous" OR are you saying they are all relatively or extremely safe but in the event of a catastrophic failure, the other actions would fail and possibly/probably cause injury whereas the 700 would not OR that in the event of a catastrophic failure the actions besides the 700 may or may not fail, the 700 is just the "least likely" to fail.
Not trying to be smart A$$ here, am honestly interested.
And would these concerns be warranted if a shooter kept to factory loaded ammunition (and what I'm getting at, if the odds of a case rupture are infinitesimal how important is it that action A would survive better than action B, when it would unlikely ever be put to such a severe test)
Or is this something that is of more concern to a reloader (which I do), that is constantly pushing the envelope (which I don't do)?
I have tried a few of the rifles your looking at.
Here is my views:
Rem 700, I have owned 6 or more of these in different configurations. The only one I wish I had back was an ADL I. 8mm Mag. Action, trigger and everything was good on that one. I had many issues with accuracy and trigger issues on more than one rifle purchased new. Remingtons warranty work was pathetic... Took months and all they did was grind down the stock poorly. I won't buy another 700 ever...
TC venture, I handled a few and don't see one in my future. The actions didn't seem very smooth and it kinda felt like a club in my hands. I have not shot one though.
Browning X Bolt, I have also not fired one of these, but I have owned a lot of A Bolt rifles. I have had great luck with the A bolts and would not be scared of browning products or quality. I have shouldered a few X bolts and would have had at least one by now, but they don't shoulder as nicely as the A bolts. At least for me...
Weatherby Vanguard S2, I'm on my second S2 and have had many S1's. They are great guns! I'm kicking my but I didn't buy more of the original backcountry's when they first came out. They all handle great and just plain work. They point nicely and the stock does reduce felt recoil.
Savage 111/116, great rifles for the money. They are typically very accurate. Handle very well, and are tough. They are similar on my list as the vanguard, however with a slightly lighter weight they might even be a touch higher.
Tikka T3, great rifles, every one I have shot is super accurate, very smooth action. The only issue I have with them is I can't hit anything offhand with them.
If it was my money going into a hunting rifle here is what I would look at:
Weatherby Mark V, FN made Winchester, Wood Stocked Kimber, Sako, Weatherby Backcountry S1 or 2, Savage, Vanguard S2.
Have you looked at a Mark V weatherby? There is certainly something to be said for having matching or very similar rifles for hunting setups. If I were to do it all over again, I would have a matched pair in the same rifles with matching ballistics so there is only one set of everything to remember.
Good luck!
Here is my views:
Rem 700, I have owned 6 or more of these in different configurations. The only one I wish I had back was an ADL I. 8mm Mag. Action, trigger and everything was good on that one. I had many issues with accuracy and trigger issues on more than one rifle purchased new. Remingtons warranty work was pathetic... Took months and all they did was grind down the stock poorly. I won't buy another 700 ever...
TC venture, I handled a few and don't see one in my future. The actions didn't seem very smooth and it kinda felt like a club in my hands. I have not shot one though.
Browning X Bolt, I have also not fired one of these, but I have owned a lot of A Bolt rifles. I have had great luck with the A bolts and would not be scared of browning products or quality. I have shouldered a few X bolts and would have had at least one by now, but they don't shoulder as nicely as the A bolts. At least for me...
Weatherby Vanguard S2, I'm on my second S2 and have had many S1's. They are great guns! I'm kicking my but I didn't buy more of the original backcountry's when they first came out. They all handle great and just plain work. They point nicely and the stock does reduce felt recoil.
Savage 111/116, great rifles for the money. They are typically very accurate. Handle very well, and are tough. They are similar on my list as the vanguard, however with a slightly lighter weight they might even be a touch higher.
Tikka T3, great rifles, every one I have shot is super accurate, very smooth action. The only issue I have with them is I can't hit anything offhand with them.
If it was my money going into a hunting rifle here is what I would look at:
Weatherby Mark V, FN made Winchester, Wood Stocked Kimber, Sako, Weatherby Backcountry S1 or 2, Savage, Vanguard S2.
Have you looked at a Mark V weatherby? There is certainly something to be said for having matching or very similar rifles for hunting setups. If I were to do it all over again, I would have a matched pair in the same rifles with matching ballistics so there is only one set of everything to remember.
Good luck!
