Optics for SAN Sniper - NF versus Leupold

Just read that same debate. Kinda mirrors the other ones I've read, including this one....

NF is the best.
No it isn't, Leupold is.
Nope, I like my BrandX.

This is what keeps the arms race going. 9mm vs 45. 10mm vs 41 mag. 22 Hornet vs 17hmr, 7X57 vs 30-06, M14 vs FN.

A pair of shoes that fits me, may not fit the next guy. I like green, Epoxy7 likes pink. To each his own.

Moral of the test/story, play/test with the ones you are thinking of, and buy what chokes your chicken.
 
The top brands are all good.

One thing I really like about the Mark4 Leupold scopes (or at least some of the reticals, don't know how many have this feature), is the retical is "broken" (or slightly open) in the middle, so if you're zoomed in a lot, the reitcal won't cover up your target, allowing for greater shooter accuracy. Whereas with the night force scopes, I found the retical when zoomed in a lot, can cover up quite a bit of your target, so if you're shooting for accurate groups (not just steel or targets) it kinda leaves you guessing.

But obviously YMMV :D
 
koldt said:
Just read that same debate. Kinda mirrors the other ones I've read, including this one....

NF is the best.
No it isn't, Leupold is.
Nope, I like my BrandX.

This is what keeps the arms race going. 9mm vs 45. 10mm vs 41 mag. 22 Hornet vs 17hmr, 7X57 vs 30-06, M14 vs FN.

A pair of shoes that fits me, may not fit the next guy. I like green, Epoxy7 likes pink. To each his own.

Moral of the test/story, play/test with the ones you are thinking of, and buy what chokes your chicken.
Click to expand...

I think scopes are much like eye glasses. what works for one does not work for someone else. Once you get into bending light the rays land differently on everyones retinas, ad coatings and the rays change again. Everyones eyes are different from side to side and even more so from human to human. with this in mind it stands to reason that everyone has their favorite as to them its simply clearer than the next. I know what works the best for me, and it may not be the best for the next. as for mechanics? the high end scopes are all great, and some low end scopes are great. Buy what floats your boat, it won't be a bad decision, regardless of what optic it is. NF and Leupold both make great optics, superb optics, and one won't make anyone a better shot than the next guy.
 
yukoncoyote said:
I used my Nightforce 5.5-22x50 out to 1350 yards this weekend. Clarity and tracking are awesome. Pretty hard to go wrong with NF.
Click to expand...

But he's using a 5.56mm. I know they're very expensive, I've got one, but at the end of the day it's a 5.56 with a 1/10 twist barrel, it was designed as a designated marksman rifle for use out to 300m. I've got a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm on mine and I never use the higher magnifications because of mirage, you can't use the mirage band on the ones TSE imported because the rail gets in the way.
 
koldt said:
Just read that same debate. Kinda mirrors the other ones I've read, including this one....

NF is the best.
No it isn't, Leupold is.
Nope, I like my BrandX.

This is what keeps the arms race going. 9mm vs 45. 10mm vs 41 mag. 22 Hornet vs 17hmr, 7X57 vs 30-06, M14 vs FN.

A pair of shoes that fits me, may not fit the next guy. I like green, Epoxy7 likes pink. To each his own.

Moral of the test/story, play/test with the ones you are thinking of, and buy what chokes your chicken.
Click to expand...

I'm a little more methodical than that myself. Especially when buying $1000-$2000 plus optics.

As I've pointed out there are certain things that the spec sheets show. Optics wise, it may be subjective but I do try to avoid that. When I buy a TV I don't go into the showroom were the whites are blinding to determine picture quality. They're all set up wrong to fool the customer. I research the reviews, specs etc. I balance the purpose and the trade offs. It's methodical and as researched as much as possible. Simply put I like to buy the best that I can afford at the time. Some research pays off.

While not a Sniper my Swiss Arms is still a target model. At the time I chose the Zeiss Conquest. The colour was truer than the Leupold with the glass being as good or possibly better. But more importantly I liked the reticle (etched not wire), the constant eye relief and the repeatability. The Leupold had reports of Lash problems with the side parallax at that time. Also there were reports of off centre reticles. The big disadvantage with the Conquest was the 1" tube and lack of MOA adjustment compared to the competition. I went with a Rapid Z reticle to overcome that. The Conquest at the time was a couple hundred less than the Leupold. I made my decision based on these factors. Personally I couldn't be happier.

Based on the above criteria, today I'd go with the Sightron SIII. The disadvantages with the Sightron are poor reticle selection (although they've just added one I like, and do have the old standby fine plex) and a change in eye relief with magnification. Although there is a change in eye relief it is fairly small. Leupold has the largest change. I suspect this is in order to keep a larger field of view. Personally I don't like having to move my face, or adjust my cheek weld to accommodate this. I like to have a rifle set up and have the exact same spot every time. When you're getting into a 1" change that's a lot. Think of how much a difference that would make in the LOP of your stock. The change in the Sightron is a lot less and I think acceptable. The Leupold I find excessive, and noticeable when shooting with one and changing magnification. The Zeiss Conquest, and NF scopes have a fixed eye relief of 3.5".

Now we run into one more consideration however. The Sniper version is going for $10K these days? If you're going for an all out military rifle then Schmidt and Bender would be a consideration, with NF being the value scope of the big names.

The optics review list on 6mmBR is excellent. The only thing is it's outdated. The Sightron today isn't the same one they reviewed. Glass quality was upped significantly since that review. The other scopes for the most part haven't changed since then. So it's a good baseline.

DSCN0011.jpg
 
There's just something about a hubble on a service rifle that just doesn't do it for me. Service stuff I prefer the original, or close to, compact type scopes.
Just goes to show, different strokes.

I'm always ready if the Red horde comes through the gap and the fighting gets ugly.

sig bayonet.jpg
 
After firing approx 3000 rounds through my Black Special Target, the POI shifts at least 6 - 10" depending on shots from bi-pod, mag or off-hand. I dont see the point in having a huge scope since accuracy is not going to be up there with a bolt gun (not even close). I would install something smaller like the NF2.5-10 and use the rifle for non-accuaracy firing. Have fun!
 
datatools said:
After firing approx 3000 rounds through my Black Special Target, the POI shifts at least 6 - 10" depending on shots from bi-pod, mag or off-hand. I dont see the point in having a huge scope since accuracy is not going to be up there with a bolt gun (not even close). I would install something smaller like the NF2.5-10 and use the rifle for non-accuaracy firing. Have fun!
Click to expand...

That is the major issue of swiss arms (and C7, regular AR15) if you want to employ them as long range precision shooting instruements. While you can get a set of FF handguard or monolithic receiver easily for ARs, it is not so easy for the swiss arms. I do think Troy actually made(or makes) FF handguard for SG556.

You will have to modify your shooting techniques. Instead of using bipod, use your backpack and try to to support the rifle as close to the chamber as possible to ensure no pressure is put on the barrel. Just like the way you will shoot a C7 or not FFed AR.
 
UncleWalther said:
Is there a reason though that one is inherently better than the other?
Click to expand...

I have owned both and done side-by-side comparisons using a MIL-STD-150A target at 100 yards on a sunny day - no difference in resolution. Colour correctness was the same to my eyes, and less important than resolution in any event.

I kept the Leupold because:
- it was optically as good as the NF
- it cost less
- it is lighter
- magnification adjustment is by a ring, so your carefully-indexed flip-up scope cap does what it is supposed to. On the NF, the entire eyepiece is adjusted, messing up where the cap flips to. The NF is marginally better for magnification adjustments if you are in a hurry and wearing gloves, but this is generally not relevant to civi shooters.
- in general, there are more accessories available for it sooner (e.g., BORS, scope shades, etc. - especially the Leupold Alumina accessories)
- the handful of things a NF does that Leupold doesn't, I don't need (e.g., zero-stop option).
 
greentips said:
That is the major issue of swiss arms (and C7, regular AR15) if you want to employ them as long range precision shooting instruements. While you can get a set of FF handguard or monolithic receiver easily for ARs, it is not so easy for the swiss arms. I do think Troy actually made(or makes) FF handguard for SG556.

You will have to modify your shooting techniques. Instead of using bipod, use your backpack and try to to support the rifle as close to the chamber as possible to ensure no pressure is put on the barrel. Just like the way you will shoot a C7 or not FFed AR.
Click to expand...

Definitely agree with this... I even took the bi-pod off of my Swiss Arms, I just never use it. What I will do is use the short mags rested on sand bags, or rest the rear of the hand guard on sand bags.

It's too bad that the SAN rifles weren't designed with FF hand guards in mind, because IMO that option available could significantly increase the accuracy potential of an already accurate rifle platform.
 
koldt said:
There's just something about a hubble on a service rifle that just doesn't do it for me. Service stuff I prefer the original, or close to, compact type scopes.
Just goes to show, different strokes.
Click to expand...

Yup. But.. mine isn't meant to be used for service rifle. Also the Original Poster was asking for his Swiss Arms Sniper. Here's a picture of the rifle he's talking about, which I seem to recall sells for around the $10K mark.

550_sniper_leftside.jpg


Here's a review of the rifle:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/sniper.html

...scope mount pictured in this article has a set of one inch rings fitted for use with a Kahles ZFM 10X range finding reticle scope with a built-in bullet drop compensator. The mount has been serial numbered to match the rifle. Other scopes offered for the SIG rifles have been Zeiss, Hensoldt, and Kern optics in both fixed and variable powers. The Carl Zeiss offerings, when available, were in the 1.5 x 6, or more recently in 2.5 x 10 magnification Diavari-Z rail-mounted configuration. The Hensoldt optics would be the fixed 10X power with a tritium range finding reticle pattern and bullet-drop compensator, or a 1.5 x 6 x 42 variable with beta light (tritium) illumination. Night vision may not work too well due to the lack of a flashider on the barrel, causing the unit to "bloom out". Also, as detailed previously, the mount has the ability to be moved from side to side as well as front to rear. This helps to compensate for proper eye relief as well as preventing the scope from hitting your face. These are invaluable features that I can’t recall being offered on any other scope mount.
Click to expand...

Accuracy is sub 1 moa. Interestingly enough I can also get 1 moa with mine. I still have to get the target springs put in, and I have only tried a few ammo types. One thing I will say however, is I found the Swiss Ruag 63 grain ammo doesn't shoot well in mine. 62 ammo was shooting 1 moa at 100 yards. I have some other brands in various grains I'm looking forward to trying.

If the OP wants to go original then he's looking at the above scopes. The scope choices and magnification he listed, seems to indicate more the approach I went with. IE fun/ease of target shooting and maybe the ability to take it gopher hunting for fun. Not a battle rifle.

Here's the 300 metre factory target that came with my rifle:

PE-90factorytarget2.jpg


Besides I have my CZ858 with bayonet for that. Real men shoot those with iron sights :p. That's for the liking pink colour comment Kolt :D. All in good fun. Although I have to say Mr. Pink was my favourite character in reservoir dogs. His not paying tips speech had me convinced.
 
Last edited:
greentips said:
That is the major issue of swiss arms (and C7, regular AR15) if you want to employ them as long range precision shooting instruements. While you can get a set of FF handguard or monolithic receiver easily for ARs, it is not so easy for the swiss arms. I do think Troy actually made(or makes) FF handguard for SG556.

You will have to modify your shooting techniques. Instead of using bipod, use your backpack and try to to support the rifle as close to the chamber as possible to ensure no pressure is put on the barrel. Just like the way you will shoot a C7 or not FFed AR.
Click to expand...

I shoot mine off a front bag fairly close to the receiver with little to no pressure. I also have a back bean bag and don't touch the stock when shooting. Seems to work well.

I haven't practiced with the bipod, but what you've posted was pretty much what I suspected since it can't be good for accuracy to put pressure on the barrel. Once I get everything dialed in with ammo and the target springs I'll mess around with shooting off the bipod to see if there are any tricks. The Swiss seem to be very efficient with this set up.

One thing I will however say. While I really do like my Swiss Arms rifle. It's cool and very well made. The reality is if the AR wasn't restricted I'd have a target AR15 along with my target AR10 rifles and call it a day. You just can't beat the AR for a bolt action accurate semi auto. Ironically all of the anti gun people while trying to limit the amount of firearms by restricting the AR have actually made people like myself just go out and buy more.
 
Last edited:
I think Leupold is overpriced for outdated technology. They build a solid "average" only scope that is abit expensive for what you get. I have both NF and SB scopes and like them awhole lot better.

I have a NF 3.5 x15 x56mm that works nicely. You can also get it in 50mm if you need a closer fit.
 
Epoxy7 said:
Besides I have my CZ858 with bayonet for that. Real men shoot those with iron sights :p. That's for the liking pink colour comment Kolt :D. All in good fun. Although I have to say Mr. Pink was my favourite character in reservoir dogs. His not paying tips speech had me convinced.
Click to expand...

I put a youtube link to that speech on the Winnibego post in the news section. It's funnier than shyt.
 
Both are very good...and good enough.
If price is not object, I think NF has the edge.
If price is a concern, then the Leup. is still a fine product.

Rich
 
UncleWalther said:
The sniper arrived today. A very interesting gun. There are several differences that people might not be aware of. Went with the NF for it.
Click to expand...

I'd really like to hear more about this as I've never had the chance to take a look at one of the snipers.

Also which NF did you go for? the 5.5-22? Which reticule?

:needPics:

:D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom