P1 vs P38
- Thread starter y2k
- Start date
It's a lot cheaper for one thing. About $300can cheaper and that usually includes a correct holster wit a spare mag. If you're looking for a decent shooter, they are the way to go. The P1 is also made slightly differently if I recall. Most P1s are as new or FTRed. Hell, buy 2 of them. Squirrel one away in the safe with a brand new holster and spare mag (not in it). It may take ten or twenty years but it will become a relatively rare martial variant and command a high premium. I can still remember the days when the Swiss 1906/29 Lugers were considered to be undesirable because they were considered to be the most basic of Lugers. Things do change, just like blue and white porcelain dishes with the Chinese figures that were the bargain basement dishes of their time and most people just threw them out the first chance they had to afford more acceptable China.
All steel mismatched wartime P38s in good only condition will cost $400+. Not a lot of difference between function, reliability or accuracy though.
Be careful with any WWII dated pistols chambered in 9mm. If you shoot the hot black tipped or equivalent sub gun ammo out of them you can bulge bbls, tear out extractors and break other parts.
If you like the look and feel of the P1 buy one. You won't be disappointed.
All steel mismatched wartime P38s in good only condition will cost $400+. Not a lot of difference between function, reliability or accuracy though.
Be careful with any WWII dated pistols chambered in 9mm. If you shoot the hot black tipped or equivalent sub gun ammo out of them you can bulge bbls, tear out extractors and break other parts.
If you like the look and feel of the P1 buy one. You won't be disappointed.
I totally agree with BEARHUNTER: "If you like the look and feel of the P1 buy one. You won't be disappointed. "
I have three P.38 and one P1. As far as I can tell, after close examination, they are the same, except for the Al frame on the P1, which I paid 475$ two years ago with holster and extra mag. which was bit on the high side compared with today's prices. Mine is an ex Berlin police, refurbished by Walther, with the slide freshly re-parkerized. Barrel was basically new. With a refurbishment by Walther I knew I was getting a top condition P.38, with everything snug and checked. It is the 9mm I've shot the most. An yes, I do prefer the steel frame, more robust, slightly less recoil (-14%) because of the 120 g difference in weight, and black paint doesn't tend to chip off.
The others are original war period: two "cyq" (SpreeWerk) collectibles paid around 650$, in Very Good Condition and one "byf 44" (Mauser) un-matched number paid 480$. This one is VG+. Slide, barrel and lock toggle are matched #, but different than receiver (frame) #. Barrel was clean, sharp shinny. It's the most accurate of the four.
On the P.38 design:
I collect military rifles and hand guns. I have over 20 pistols, ranging from Mauser C-96 to modern SIG P226. Two stand out in elegance and precision (the Swiss Luger 06/29 and the SIG P210). Two others stand out in quality of design and features from the military point of view: the Walther P.38 and the Browning HP (of which I also have a outstanding Inglis "hybrid" version). Although with differences, both are the pinnacle of perfection and reliability. (Forget that bull s**t about poor quality Nazi era weapons made by slave labour.)
The P.38 is a double action pistol, with decocking lever and an inherent safety so good that there is no way the shot can go off accidentally: two mechanism block the firing pin: 1- the decocking lewer, which will first blocks the pin and after, releases the hammer; the decocking lever in the down position (i.e. after decocking) also acts as a "safety on"; 2- the trigger mechanism, which in DA requires about 3/4 of trigger travel pull before disengaging the second firing pin blockage. So unless you are actually pulling the trigger with quite a force in DA, or minimal force in SA (you shouldn't walk around with you finger inside the trigger guard in SA), nothing will happen. This pistol can be carried in "Condition 2" *(i.e. uncocked/unlocked), with a round in the chamber, with very high safety. Which means that it can safely be carried with a round in the chamber, giving it a total capacity of nine, just one round under the Canadian legal limit for handguns. In addition, it has a "round in chamber" indicator, easy to feel with your thumb, even in the dark. I never had a failure to feed or eject with a P.38 (over 2000 counts).
The Browning HP is a joy to hold and look at. It's reliability is also said to be legendary - can't say, having shot less than 500 rounds with mine, a 1979 version with target sights). In terms of safety, it was until 1989 (model FN Mk3S on), significantly behind the P.38: no decocking lever, safety does not block the firing pin (accidental discharges reported in Bosnia in 1999 when pistol was dropped muzzle down on hard steel floor of APCs or tanks). In terms of readiness, it needs to be carried in "Condition 1" (i.e. "cocked and locked") if a round is to be present in chamber to avoid having to cycle before use: this is not a safe practice with pre-Mk3S versions.
So in conclusion, my no. 1 old military pistol is definitely the P.38.
Only surpassed in the late 1980 when the SIG/Sauer P226 and the Beretta 92F surfaced during the trial leading to the replacement of the Colt M1911/A1 in the US military. The P226 is like a combined P.38/Browning HP (high capacity mag. + inherent safety). The Beretta, I have not owned so far (it's on the wish list...), but it appears from the diagrams that I have seen, to operate like the P.38. But note that both the P226 and the Beretta 92F have more loose parts when disassembled: 5 counting the mag., while the P.38 only has 4, because the springs are captive in the receiver. Neither have "round in chamber" indication. The CZ75, another fine quality nine, I am told, reached safety level of P226 and 92F only with the B series.
P.38 über Alles! (Less than half price of modern "wonder nines".)
Gefreiter.
I have three P.38 and one P1. As far as I can tell, after close examination, they are the same, except for the Al frame on the P1, which I paid 475$ two years ago with holster and extra mag. which was bit on the high side compared with today's prices. Mine is an ex Berlin police, refurbished by Walther, with the slide freshly re-parkerized. Barrel was basically new. With a refurbishment by Walther I knew I was getting a top condition P.38, with everything snug and checked. It is the 9mm I've shot the most. An yes, I do prefer the steel frame, more robust, slightly less recoil (-14%) because of the 120 g difference in weight, and black paint doesn't tend to chip off.
The others are original war period: two "cyq" (SpreeWerk) collectibles paid around 650$, in Very Good Condition and one "byf 44" (Mauser) un-matched number paid 480$. This one is VG+. Slide, barrel and lock toggle are matched #, but different than receiver (frame) #. Barrel was clean, sharp shinny. It's the most accurate of the four.
On the P.38 design:
I collect military rifles and hand guns. I have over 20 pistols, ranging from Mauser C-96 to modern SIG P226. Two stand out in elegance and precision (the Swiss Luger 06/29 and the SIG P210). Two others stand out in quality of design and features from the military point of view: the Walther P.38 and the Browning HP (of which I also have a outstanding Inglis "hybrid" version). Although with differences, both are the pinnacle of perfection and reliability. (Forget that bull s**t about poor quality Nazi era weapons made by slave labour.)
The P.38 is a double action pistol, with decocking lever and an inherent safety so good that there is no way the shot can go off accidentally: two mechanism block the firing pin: 1- the decocking lewer, which will first blocks the pin and after, releases the hammer; the decocking lever in the down position (i.e. after decocking) also acts as a "safety on"; 2- the trigger mechanism, which in DA requires about 3/4 of trigger travel pull before disengaging the second firing pin blockage. So unless you are actually pulling the trigger with quite a force in DA, or minimal force in SA (you shouldn't walk around with you finger inside the trigger guard in SA), nothing will happen. This pistol can be carried in "Condition 2" *(i.e. uncocked/unlocked), with a round in the chamber, with very high safety. Which means that it can safely be carried with a round in the chamber, giving it a total capacity of nine, just one round under the Canadian legal limit for handguns. In addition, it has a "round in chamber" indicator, easy to feel with your thumb, even in the dark. I never had a failure to feed or eject with a P.38 (over 2000 counts).
The Browning HP is a joy to hold and look at. It's reliability is also said to be legendary - can't say, having shot less than 500 rounds with mine, a 1979 version with target sights). In terms of safety, it was until 1989 (model FN Mk3S on), significantly behind the P.38: no decocking lever, safety does not block the firing pin (accidental discharges reported in Bosnia in 1999 when pistol was dropped muzzle down on hard steel floor of APCs or tanks). In terms of readiness, it needs to be carried in "Condition 1" (i.e. "cocked and locked") if a round is to be present in chamber to avoid having to cycle before use: this is not a safe practice with pre-Mk3S versions.
So in conclusion, my no. 1 old military pistol is definitely the P.38.
Only surpassed in the late 1980 when the SIG/Sauer P226 and the Beretta 92F surfaced during the trial leading to the replacement of the Colt M1911/A1 in the US military. The P226 is like a combined P.38/Browning HP (high capacity mag. + inherent safety). The Beretta, I have not owned so far (it's on the wish list...), but it appears from the diagrams that I have seen, to operate like the P.38. But note that both the P226 and the Beretta 92F have more loose parts when disassembled: 5 counting the mag., while the P.38 only has 4, because the springs are captive in the receiver. Neither have "round in chamber" indication. The CZ75, another fine quality nine, I am told, reached safety level of P226 and 92F only with the B series.
P.38 über Alles! (Less than half price of modern "wonder nines".)
Gefreiter.
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RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Bear I fired thousands of rounds of CDN Mk1 NATO out of my Walther HP, (pre-war commercial, blued, with mismatched nazi wartime barrel), and never had or knew of this issue. Where did you hear of it or read of it and why?
By the way in my opinion the P38 is a fine pistol , and i have never been able to shoot any better with any issue 9mm with ball ammoJust ensure if its wartime the drop hammer safety is not worn or slave labour sabotaged to fire on dropping the hammer. It happened with mine and i didn't even realize it till I had it sold it to a friend. I wanted it back ,but he wouldn't sell it back, so he had to live with the safety problem. I only charged him 150.00 for it, but the drop hammer safety was a known issue on some. Always check a P38 for this keeping your thumbs away from the slide and checking to see if it's hitting the primer at all.
Minor differences
"As far as I can tell, after close examination, they (P.38 and P1) are the same, except for the Aluminum frame on the P1..." You had me checking again (I hate making affirmations when I'm not 100% sure):
Yes, internally, there are minor design changes (refer to illustration from NRA Guide to Firearms Assembly) on my 7/57 (July 1957) P1 :
J) Firing pin is different: now cylindrical where there was a flat in middle,
G) Firing pin retainer pin is smaller in diameter,
H) Cartridge indicator is shaped differently,
B) Firing pin spring is shaped differently: rear square hook portion now faces forward to ride on the widened flat in piece H which is closer to barrel.
I see these changes as perhaps simplifications in manufacturing. I don't beleive they affect my previous appreciation in any way as far as reliability and safety are concerned. The Walther P1 pistol was use by the Berlin Police until the late 1980s when it was replaced by the SIG P226, another of my favorites.
By the way you can get them cheaper now: "(PSAR698)- Walther P-38 Pistol, Cal. 9 mm Parabellum, Post-War Alloy Frame, the standard sidearm of the German Police. Comes with spare mag/black leather holster, restricted, Condition: Excellent, $ 395.00 Can" at: http://psmilitaria.50megs.com/pistol.html
Believe me, you won't find a finer 9mm pistol for that price, period. As a footnote, in the 1970 series "The man from U.N.C.L.E" their (then) super hi-teck pistol was a variation on the P.38 theme. Maybe that's where I got the crunch on the P.38.
Gefreiter.
"As far as I can tell, after close examination, they (P.38 and P1) are the same, except for the Aluminum frame on the P1..." You had me checking again (I hate making affirmations when I'm not 100% sure):
Yes, internally, there are minor design changes (refer to illustration from NRA Guide to Firearms Assembly) on my 7/57 (July 1957) P1 :
J) Firing pin is different: now cylindrical where there was a flat in middle,
G) Firing pin retainer pin is smaller in diameter,
H) Cartridge indicator is shaped differently,
B) Firing pin spring is shaped differently: rear square hook portion now faces forward to ride on the widened flat in piece H which is closer to barrel.
I see these changes as perhaps simplifications in manufacturing. I don't beleive they affect my previous appreciation in any way as far as reliability and safety are concerned. The Walther P1 pistol was use by the Berlin Police until the late 1980s when it was replaced by the SIG P226, another of my favorites.
By the way you can get them cheaper now: "(PSAR698)- Walther P-38 Pistol, Cal. 9 mm Parabellum, Post-War Alloy Frame, the standard sidearm of the German Police. Comes with spare mag/black leather holster, restricted, Condition: Excellent, $ 395.00 Can" at: http://psmilitaria.50megs.com/pistol.html
Believe me, you won't find a finer 9mm pistol for that price, period. As a footnote, in the 1970 series "The man from U.N.C.L.E" their (then) super hi-teck pistol was a variation on the P.38 theme. Maybe that's where I got the crunch on the P.38.
Gefreiter.
Last edited:
Defective Safety hammer lowering lever on P.38
Likely to be caused by defective (cracked) part # Q "Safety hammer lowering lever". My "byf 44" was in that condition when I bought it and is one of the reason why I got it cheaper. The first replacement part, I got from Marstar (as much as I hate making publicity for them...) was improperly shaped. The replacement they provided now works fine. By all means, tel your buyer to get one (a good one) from them (their part # P38-029: 29$). Still, always point in a safe direction when decocking.
The simplest way to check, WITH PISTOL AND CHAMBER CONFIRMED EMPTY is to ####, pivot decocking lever down half way (there's a sort of catch in that mid position) and try to push the firing pin with a pointed object: it should move forward no more than about one millimetre. Otherwise get a good replacement part.
Gefreiter
Bear I fired thousands of rounds of CDN Mk1 NATO out of my Walther HP, (pre-war commercial, blued, with mismatched nazi wartime barrel), and never had or knew of this issue. Where did you hear of it or read of it and why?
By the way in my opinion the P38 is a fine pistol , and i have never been able to shoot any better with any issue 9mm with ball ammo. Just ensure if its wartime the drop hammer safety is not worn or slave labour sabotaged to fire on dropping the hammer. It happened with mine and i didn't even realize it till I had it sold it to a friend. I wanted it back ,but he wouldn't sell it back, so he had to live with the safety problem. I only charged him 150.00 for it, but the drop hammer safety was a known issue on some. Always check a P38 for this keeping your thumbs away from the slide and checking to see if it's hitting the primer at all.
Likely to be caused by defective (cracked) part # Q "Safety hammer lowering lever". My "byf 44" was in that condition when I bought it and is one of the reason why I got it cheaper. The first replacement part, I got from Marstar (as much as I hate making publicity for them...) was improperly shaped. The replacement they provided now works fine. By all means, tel your buyer to get one (a good one) from them (their part # P38-029: 29$). Still, always point in a safe direction when decocking.
The simplest way to check, WITH PISTOL AND CHAMBER CONFIRMED EMPTY is to ####, pivot decocking lever down half way (there's a sort of catch in that mid position) and try to push the firing pin with a pointed object: it should move forward no more than about one millimetre. Otherwise get a good replacement part.
Gefreiter
RTS, back in the early seventies, I ruined a P35, a P38 and a byf44 P08.
The P35 had a barrel bulged with surplus German, black tipped ammunition that was intended for and written on the box as such, only I couldn't read German, to be used only in sub machine guns and gave a list of acceptable firearms to shoot it in. None of the 9mm handguns were listed, other than the ASTRA.
In the case of the P38 cyq 43, I shot some surplus Israeli produced 9mm, dated 1951, that I found in loose bulk bins. I should have stopped on the first shot. The stuff was hot as hell and I had only bulged the bbl on the P35 a month previously. Anyway to make a long story short, the second shot tore the extractor, spring and plunger out and damaged the cover plate on the slide as well as the rear sight.
The P08 was almost a complete write off. The commercial ammo available at the time wouldn't operate the toggle mechanism and constantly jammed. Surplus was cheap and plentiful and if you were careful to read the caveats on the outside of the box, was pretty good, even if it was corrosive. The surplus I used in the P08 was again, from a suplus bulk bin. Again, I should have known better. It broke the toggle link on the first shot.
All of the above pistols had been in excellent condition and had matching numbers. All were repairable and were. All lost at least half their value plus the cost of replacement parts after being repaired.
The P38, P08, and the P35 will function beautifully and reliably on the modern commercial fodder. They will do the same on surplus fodder if you know what you have. If the ammunition is from WWII and early 50s, it is suspect, unless it is in its originanal sealed container and marked safe for your pistol. European pistol ammunition was mostly packaged in 25 round boxes. It was packed in 64 round boxes, just like UK and Canadian sten gun ammo cartons were, for sub machine guns. Sadly, this wasn't always the case.
On another note, I never had any problems with UK, Australian, US or Canadian made 9mm that was sold as milsurp. The early commercial stuff was another matter.
All of the above ammuntition was purchased at Lever Arms. Alan used to have signs posted on the bulk bins that stated he couldn't be held responsible for the quality or pressures generated by the bulk ammo and that's why it was extremely cheap. In those days the caveat was in place and it was up to the buyer to find out if the ammo was indeed safe for their firearms. In those days, sub machine gun useage at the local ranges was a common thing. Even out in the bush out of hearing range or sight. This stuff could be purchased by weight if you wanted a large quantity of it. We shot up close to 100,000 rounds one summer and it didn't require a mortgage on the house to do it. It wasn't cheap and the GF whined that I loved the MP38 and 40 more than I loved her. I agreed but told her I loved her in a different way. I spent the rest of that summer and fall without a significant other. Only a few fly pasts. I also got labled as a gun nut. The hippie girls were in vogue at the time. Peace, make love not war. You know the type. Fun under the right conditions but not keepers.
The P35 had a barrel bulged with surplus German, black tipped ammunition that was intended for and written on the box as such, only I couldn't read German, to be used only in sub machine guns and gave a list of acceptable firearms to shoot it in. None of the 9mm handguns were listed, other than the ASTRA.
In the case of the P38 cyq 43, I shot some surplus Israeli produced 9mm, dated 1951, that I found in loose bulk bins. I should have stopped on the first shot. The stuff was hot as hell and I had only bulged the bbl on the P35 a month previously. Anyway to make a long story short, the second shot tore the extractor, spring and plunger out and damaged the cover plate on the slide as well as the rear sight.
The P08 was almost a complete write off. The commercial ammo available at the time wouldn't operate the toggle mechanism and constantly jammed. Surplus was cheap and plentiful and if you were careful to read the caveats on the outside of the box, was pretty good, even if it was corrosive. The surplus I used in the P08 was again, from a suplus bulk bin. Again, I should have known better. It broke the toggle link on the first shot.
All of the above pistols had been in excellent condition and had matching numbers. All were repairable and were. All lost at least half their value plus the cost of replacement parts after being repaired.
The P38, P08, and the P35 will function beautifully and reliably on the modern commercial fodder. They will do the same on surplus fodder if you know what you have. If the ammunition is from WWII and early 50s, it is suspect, unless it is in its originanal sealed container and marked safe for your pistol. European pistol ammunition was mostly packaged in 25 round boxes. It was packed in 64 round boxes, just like UK and Canadian sten gun ammo cartons were, for sub machine guns. Sadly, this wasn't always the case.
On another note, I never had any problems with UK, Australian, US or Canadian made 9mm that was sold as milsurp. The early commercial stuff was another matter.
All of the above ammuntition was purchased at Lever Arms. Alan used to have signs posted on the bulk bins that stated he couldn't be held responsible for the quality or pressures generated by the bulk ammo and that's why it was extremely cheap. In those days the caveat was in place and it was up to the buyer to find out if the ammo was indeed safe for their firearms. In those days, sub machine gun useage at the local ranges was a common thing. Even out in the bush out of hearing range or sight. This stuff could be purchased by weight if you wanted a large quantity of it. We shot up close to 100,000 rounds one summer and it didn't require a mortgage on the house to do it. It wasn't cheap and the GF whined that I loved the MP38 and 40 more than I loved her. I agreed but told her I loved her in a different way. I spent the rest of that summer and fall without a significant other. Only a few fly pasts. I also got labled as a gun nut. The hippie girls were in vogue at the time. Peace, make love not war. You know the type. Fun under the right conditions but not keepers.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Great bit of history in your post Bear. I thank you for your time.
I remember going through the Lever Arms part of the bargain hunter every month first. I did buy several firearms from them way back and they always seemed to have the best price.
The ball ammo we were shooting in the 80s(IVI 74 etc..) in those 64 round boxes seemed okay for all pistols but alot of the older S&W 59s would show cracked frames between 6-8K rounds from them. My 459 had about that when i sold it but it didn't show any cracks or any amount of pounding on Frame slide rails like most.
Was this issue CDN ball also used in the SMG C1? Or was there special issue for the SMG and marked accordingly? I don't remember any warnings on boxes.
I remember going through the Lever Arms part of the bargain hunter every month first. I did buy several firearms from them way back and they always seemed to have the best price.
The ball ammo we were shooting in the 80s(IVI 74 etc..) in those 64 round boxes seemed okay for all pistols but alot of the older S&W 59s would show cracked frames between 6-8K rounds from them. My 459 had about that when i sold it but it didn't show any cracks or any amount of pounding on Frame slide rails like most.
Was this issue CDN ball also used in the SMG C1? Or was there special issue for the SMG and marked accordingly? I don't remember any warnings on boxes.
Great bit of history in your post Bear. I thank you for your time.
I remember going through the Lever Arms part of the bargain hunter every month first. I did buy several firearms from them way back and they always seemed to have the best price.
The ball ammo we were shooting in the 80s(IVI 74 etc..) in those 64 round boxes seemed okay for all pistols but alot of the older S&W 59s would show cracked frames between 6-8K rounds from them. My 459 had about that when i sold it but it didn't show any cracks or any amount of pounding on Frame slide rails like most.
Was this issue CDN ball also used in the SMG C1? Or was there special issue for the SMG and marked accordingly? I don't remember any warnings on boxes.
Cdn military 9mm ball ammo was allasame- SMG or Pistol.
X2 purple and all of my 9mm pistols functioned wonderfully with it. My problems occurred from WWII German and later Israeli manufactured ammunition. I don't know why Israel loaded so hot. At first I though it was poorly stored but I was wrong. I relegated it for sub machine gun use only and all was well.
I don't ever recall seeing Canadian produced 9mm ammunition in anything other than 64 round cartons. Other cartridges were packed in 12 round, paper containers. Like the .38/200, .455 and .38special. I don't recall ever seeing any Canadian produced milsurp 45 acp although I'm sure they made lots.
You're most welcome RTS
I don't ever recall seeing Canadian produced 9mm ammunition in anything other than 64 round cartons. Other cartridges were packed in 12 round, paper containers. Like the .38/200, .455 and .38special. I don't recall ever seeing any Canadian produced milsurp 45 acp although I'm sure they made lots.
You're most welcome RTS
I do recall reading somewhere, many years ago, that the German black-ball SMG loads ran up to 50kpsi. Most 9mmP runs 33 - 36kpsi, so the Jerry burp-gun stuff would have been roughly a Proof load (or worse) for anything else.
I do know that I had a fun afternoon up in the mountains behind Vancouver during that time, shooting with a couple of friends, one a scrawny little girl who wanted to try out shooting with a real gun. She ran through ALL THREE of my 64-round boxes of Canadian surplus 9mm, running it through my 1918 Luger as fast as I could stuff the mags. Not a single bobble, not a hitch, Luger ran perfectly..... nd she shot better with my gun than I did! A complete natural! I don`t know where she is now, but I do hope she is still shooting. I know the Luger is still shooting, anyway.
.
I do know that I had a fun afternoon up in the mountains behind Vancouver during that time, shooting with a couple of friends, one a scrawny little girl who wanted to try out shooting with a real gun. She ran through ALL THREE of my 64-round boxes of Canadian surplus 9mm, running it through my 1918 Luger as fast as I could stuff the mags. Not a single bobble, not a hitch, Luger ran perfectly..... nd she shot better with my gun than I did! A complete natural! I don`t know where she is now, but I do hope she is still shooting. I know the Luger is still shooting, anyway.
.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Thanks purple i though so, but i remembr guys saying it was hot for SMG cycling.
I was talking to our Club president who is ex -British Army and he said they had a round that was marked for SMG use, and was extremely hard on pistols. I don't remember the exact designation ,but Purple you may know it.
I don't know about earlier Brit military 9mm, but both the UK and Canada are STANAG (NATO) compliant with currently produced 9mm ball. As far as I can recall, any Cdn 9mm that I fired since joining the Army in 1964 was marked with the NATO "cross" on the head. This includes both the DA and IVI stuff.
I recall some quality control issues when we first started getting the IVI 9mm ammo back around 1971/72. These included uneven case mouths and some squib loads. I distinctly remember an incident where the primer detonated, but the propellant did not, leaving the bullet lodged part way down a Browning barrel. Needless to say this didn't inspire a lot of confidence in the IVI product and led to a number of Unsatisfactory Condition Reports on the stuff. It improved after that.
I recall some quality control issues when we first started getting the IVI 9mm ammo back around 1971/72. These included uneven case mouths and some squib loads. I distinctly remember an incident where the primer detonated, but the propellant did not, leaving the bullet lodged part way down a Browning barrel. Needless to say this didn't inspire a lot of confidence in the IVI product and led to a number of Unsatisfactory Condition Reports on the stuff. It improved after that.
During WWII, the allies captured huge quantities of 9x19 ammunition. They soon found that the german sub machine guns needed higher pressures to operate reliably in colder weather. That is the rumor anyway. The Sten was developed purposely as a cheap alternative to the existing sub machine guns. I'm sure the Lanchesters and others were well made and worked fine with loadings around 30,000psi. I don't know though, no experience with them.
The Stens were reliable and ugly, they worked well with captured ammunition and allied built ammunition. My long gone uncle, told me that the 9mm ammunition he was issued in North Africa and Italy could be either German or Allied made. He preferred the German fodder because in his personal opinion it was more powerful. He didn't like firearms much but recognised them as useful tools. His issue No4 and Sten were just that tools. If they didn't work, he replaced them and had no attachments to them unless they were absolutely reliable every time. His commanding officer wouldn't let them use captured enemy weapons for anything other than to try them out to understand what they were up against and their limitations in comparison to what they were issued. Not all commanders had the same rules. One of the reasons behind his commanders decisions was that snipers would target a man carrying a captured weapon. I don't know if that is the case or not. I do know that POWs that were taken with souveniers were often treated harshly. Especially if things like rings or other personal objects were found. Food, scarves, socks, gloves any soldier understood the rest ????
The Stens were reliable and ugly, they worked well with captured ammunition and allied built ammunition. My long gone uncle, told me that the 9mm ammunition he was issued in North Africa and Italy could be either German or Allied made. He preferred the German fodder because in his personal opinion it was more powerful. He didn't like firearms much but recognised them as useful tools. His issue No4 and Sten were just that tools. If they didn't work, he replaced them and had no attachments to them unless they were absolutely reliable every time. His commanding officer wouldn't let them use captured enemy weapons for anything other than to try them out to understand what they were up against and their limitations in comparison to what they were issued. Not all commanders had the same rules. One of the reasons behind his commanders decisions was that snipers would target a man carrying a captured weapon. I don't know if that is the case or not. I do know that POWs that were taken with souveniers were often treated harshly. Especially if things like rings or other personal objects were found. Food, scarves, socks, gloves any soldier understood the rest ????
I met a Canadian Korean war vet years ago who disliked Americans very much because they would take the WOOL trousers off dead Canadian troops and put them on because they were just issued cotton pants and were freezing.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I've done a bit of research to verify what my ex-Brit Army chap said, seeing we are on the topic, and many sites related to the Stering SMG say the British issued " Hi-power,SMG use only" ,9mm ammo that was totally safe in the SMG ,but extremely hard on the Pistols such as their issue Hi-Power.
I can't find the designation, such as M882 on our 9mm NATO, but it was some kind of double stamp ,to identify it as SMG only ammo, for use in the Sterling SMG. I'm going to keep researching for it and i will query our Club president when i see him again.
I can't find the designation, such as M882 on our 9mm NATO, but it was some kind of double stamp ,to identify it as SMG only ammo, for use in the Sterling SMG. I'm going to keep researching for it and i will query our Club president when i see him again.
Pushing the envelope, a risky business
By design, the 9x19 Parabellum round is rated at 34 084 psi (235 MPA) Maximum Pressure. What the gun will take and what the cartridge will take are two different things. Obviously if the Military wanted a hotter round they probably had to require stronger casing from the ammo supplier, while ensuring their SMGs were OK with it. But generally, they would shy away from such a strategy, as invariably, hot rounds would make their way into weaker firearms, just like the hotter .303 British Mk 8 round, made specifically to obtain greater range from the Vickers Machine gun, found its way into the simple soldiers Lee Enfield rifles, something the Ordnance forbidden. (Boys will be boys...)
One notable exception is the Czech with their 7,62x25 Tokarev round, developed to give more zap to their SMG. It was so hot that to avoid having two different round (and sparing their pistols!), they developed the vz.52 pistol with a very unique and strong "roller block" slide lock usually only found on rifles (e.g. German G3). I found this so interesting that I spared no effort and eventually landed a pristine vz.52 and even the armoury maintenance box (from Tradex) with dozens of multiple spare parts, including a new barrel. This holds the promise of very interesting hours of tuning/shooting when I get the time to work some loads for my vz.52. The Hornady reloading manual gives recipes for up to 1700 fps with their 90gr HP-XTP bullet, which means 577 foot-pound of muzzle energy! This is a quantum jump from the standard 386 to 406 foot-lbf energy of the ordnance specification for the ordinary Tokarev round, depending on your source of information (COTW or Wikipedia). Be remembered that in the 357 mag revolver, the Federal run of the mill cartridge 125 gr ~ 1450 fps delivers 584 ft-lbf energy. So here we have an Warsaw Pact auto pistol with an action strong enough to look at a 357mag almost eye to eye (and with significantly more penetrating power given the extra 250 fps). But holding the vz52 at these energy levels will no doubt be... an interesting challenge.
Note also that the 357 SIG round in the 125gr formulation for which it was designed, precisely to get the often very needed penetration (doors, cars, windshields, flak vest, etc.) for the police work, is rated between 1350 to 1430 fps for the four common manufacturers, which equates to only 506 to 468 ft-lbf, still below the vz52 capability. You need to go to Bonded Defence JHP ammo to better this, with 115 gr x 1550 fps = 614 ft-lbf.
Getting back to the 9x19mm Parabellum, note that the Germans in WWII used steel casing for all their rifle/MG/pistol/SMG ammo, saving the brass for more precious usage. This possibly allowed to "push the envelope" a bit more on the power of the round. The P.38 and MP38/40 robustness could certainly handle it. The more common values found for the commercial 9mm is 115 gr at around 1200 fps, which equals to = 368 ft-lbf. Cartridges of the World (COTW) indicates that the present US Military load is 124 gr FMJ at 1299 fps, which equates to 465 ft-lbf. Cant say that's a sissy round. The M9 (Beretta 92FS) and the SIG 226 can handle it no problem.
As a footnote, Clive M. Law in Inglis Diamond, the Canadian High Power Pistol reports on page 82, an Ordnance Board Proceeding (test report) where it is mentioned that 3 types of 9mm ammo were used:
British Mk IIz (Muzzle velocity = 1300 f/s);
British 1943 (MV 1250 f/s);
American Parabellum (speed not indicated).
So it can be seen that in the early days, the Inglis HP was on a diet of 431 ft-lbf biscuits, only a bit short of the present day US ordnance 9mm pill.
I caution everyone here, specially shooters (and there are a lots of posts in CGN from these types of macho banger) who take fun in bragging about how powerful a load they manage to squeeze out of such or such a gun or rifle. A hand, an eye or worse can easily be lost if you wind up outside the design envelope or if it is pushed repeatedly with an older firearm, or a recent one for that matter. We've all met these kind of shooters, they usually end up in the last stall to the right or to the left with a few empty position between them and the rest of the worried shooters. I'm not a big guy, and one definitely needs to remain polite when confronting a 220 pd person toting a Casul or similar weapon of mass destruction; so I take advantage of my grey hair and when I happen to be the Official on duty and the guys are back behind the safety line, I check what equipment this loud shooter has and ask what ammo he's shooting. If it's personal reloads and there is no chronograph in use, I ask the member to change gun or ammo or leave. It has happen and the shooter him-self usually understood everyone's concern.
Finally, it's a shame to risk damaging nice or even not so nice war trophies (breaking a Luger toggle, shame on you, Bear!).
By design, the 9x19 Parabellum round is rated at 34 084 psi (235 MPA) Maximum Pressure. What the gun will take and what the cartridge will take are two different things. Obviously if the Military wanted a hotter round they probably had to require stronger casing from the ammo supplier, while ensuring their SMGs were OK with it. But generally, they would shy away from such a strategy, as invariably, hot rounds would make their way into weaker firearms, just like the hotter .303 British Mk 8 round, made specifically to obtain greater range from the Vickers Machine gun, found its way into the simple soldiers Lee Enfield rifles, something the Ordnance forbidden. (Boys will be boys...)
One notable exception is the Czech with their 7,62x25 Tokarev round, developed to give more zap to their SMG. It was so hot that to avoid having two different round (and sparing their pistols!), they developed the vz.52 pistol with a very unique and strong "roller block" slide lock usually only found on rifles (e.g. German G3). I found this so interesting that I spared no effort and eventually landed a pristine vz.52 and even the armoury maintenance box (from Tradex) with dozens of multiple spare parts, including a new barrel. This holds the promise of very interesting hours of tuning/shooting when I get the time to work some loads for my vz.52. The Hornady reloading manual gives recipes for up to 1700 fps with their 90gr HP-XTP bullet, which means 577 foot-pound of muzzle energy! This is a quantum jump from the standard 386 to 406 foot-lbf energy of the ordnance specification for the ordinary Tokarev round, depending on your source of information (COTW or Wikipedia). Be remembered that in the 357 mag revolver, the Federal run of the mill cartridge 125 gr ~ 1450 fps delivers 584 ft-lbf energy. So here we have an Warsaw Pact auto pistol with an action strong enough to look at a 357mag almost eye to eye (and with significantly more penetrating power given the extra 250 fps). But holding the vz52 at these energy levels will no doubt be... an interesting challenge.
Note also that the 357 SIG round in the 125gr formulation for which it was designed, precisely to get the often very needed penetration (doors, cars, windshields, flak vest, etc.) for the police work, is rated between 1350 to 1430 fps for the four common manufacturers, which equates to only 506 to 468 ft-lbf, still below the vz52 capability. You need to go to Bonded Defence JHP ammo to better this, with 115 gr x 1550 fps = 614 ft-lbf.
Getting back to the 9x19mm Parabellum, note that the Germans in WWII used steel casing for all their rifle/MG/pistol/SMG ammo, saving the brass for more precious usage. This possibly allowed to "push the envelope" a bit more on the power of the round. The P.38 and MP38/40 robustness could certainly handle it. The more common values found for the commercial 9mm is 115 gr at around 1200 fps, which equals to = 368 ft-lbf. Cartridges of the World (COTW) indicates that the present US Military load is 124 gr FMJ at 1299 fps, which equates to 465 ft-lbf. Cant say that's a sissy round. The M9 (Beretta 92FS) and the SIG 226 can handle it no problem.
As a footnote, Clive M. Law in Inglis Diamond, the Canadian High Power Pistol reports on page 82, an Ordnance Board Proceeding (test report) where it is mentioned that 3 types of 9mm ammo were used:
British Mk IIz (Muzzle velocity = 1300 f/s);
British 1943 (MV 1250 f/s);
American Parabellum (speed not indicated).
So it can be seen that in the early days, the Inglis HP was on a diet of 431 ft-lbf biscuits, only a bit short of the present day US ordnance 9mm pill.
I caution everyone here, specially shooters (and there are a lots of posts in CGN from these types of macho banger) who take fun in bragging about how powerful a load they manage to squeeze out of such or such a gun or rifle. A hand, an eye or worse can easily be lost if you wind up outside the design envelope or if it is pushed repeatedly with an older firearm, or a recent one for that matter. We've all met these kind of shooters, they usually end up in the last stall to the right or to the left with a few empty position between them and the rest of the worried shooters. I'm not a big guy, and one definitely needs to remain polite when confronting a 220 pd person toting a Casul or similar weapon of mass destruction; so I take advantage of my grey hair and when I happen to be the Official on duty and the guys are back behind the safety line, I check what equipment this loud shooter has and ask what ammo he's shooting. If it's personal reloads and there is no chronograph in use, I ask the member to change gun or ammo or leave. It has happen and the shooter him-self usually understood everyone's concern.
Finally, it's a shame to risk damaging nice or even not so nice war trophies (breaking a Luger toggle, shame on you, Bear!).
More changes in prewar vs postwar P.38
Yes, 2YK, there were more changes. Please refer to the following page of Shooter's Bible from one of their 1950's edition. A bit fuzzy, but you can read: "All parts listed fit both prewar and postwar guns with the following exceptions: where parts # 11, 12, 15, 19 to 21 and 39 to 42 are needed for prewar guns, please state so, as they do not interchange."
I already reported differences in #11 (firing pin), 15 (limit stop pin) and 16 (firing pin spring, difference not mentioned here). You need to consider the others which I had not noticed, since I did not go to that level of dismantlement.
Tell me you're impressed on what can be found on Internet! Hardly believe it my-self. Cheers!
Yes, 2YK, there were more changes. Please refer to the following page of Shooter's Bible from one of their 1950's edition. A bit fuzzy, but you can read: "All parts listed fit both prewar and postwar guns with the following exceptions: where parts # 11, 12, 15, 19 to 21 and 39 to 42 are needed for prewar guns, please state so, as they do not interchange."
I already reported differences in #11 (firing pin), 15 (limit stop pin) and 16 (firing pin spring, difference not mentioned here). You need to consider the others which I had not noticed, since I did not go to that level of dismantlement.
Tell me you're impressed on what can be found on Internet! Hardly believe it my-self. Cheers!
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