Parks Canada Regs

[Sharps '63]

I recently attended 'Brigade Days' at Fort Langley, British Columbia. In order to participate in the Firearms Demos that took place, you had to ungergo the Parks Canada lecture.

First off, you were required to empty all powder horns and secure any blank charges you may have brought in your vehicle off site. All blanks were supplied by the Fort.
They issued 90 gr FFFg cartridges and required that you first prime the pan before dumping the rest of the charge down the barrel. This made all of us a little uneasy as it is NOT what we would have done on any range or any BP RV.
This was the British Army way of loading a Brown Bess to prevent a soldier from dumping all his powder down the barrel and not having any for priming.
Several misfires occurred on otherwise reliable locks, we think due to the lack of FFFFg for priming.

Their procedure for loading a cap lock was to leave the hammer at half ####. This allows for an air flow as you are seating the charge and compressing it with the paper of the cartridge.

As many of you know, a very important man on a cannon crew is the man wearing the leather thumbstall, who's job it is to prevent any and all air flow during the loading process.

You have to wonder why they want you to do this and we got no satisfactory answer other than it was 'the rules'.

Blowing down your barrel between shots (it was very hot weather) was also a no-no, something most ML rifle shooters will do as a safety measure.

Comments, please.

Todd

 

[Musketfire]

Me I never blow down the barell....EVER.. I dont want that 75 cal barell near my face for any reason, also I dont want to build the habit of doing it, shure it sounds paranoid but thats me I have seen what my big bore can do .

I use ffg for both prime and main load, and rarely have problems that I myself do not cause.

Priming the pan before loading the main charge was standard procedure in the British forces, during reinactments we have to load it that way aswell, when I am shooting in my own time I load then prime.

I think they wanted to supply the powder as to control it, you know to make shure it IS black powder for safetys sake.

Sounds like a good time was had by all!!

Now as far as misfires...hey when speed firing a flintlock it IS going to happen sooner or later..

Keeps us humble.

Cheers!

 

[scairns]

I am not sure why you would comprimise your saftey for the benefit of a bunch of idiots who can come up with rules, but have never handled let alone fired a black powder gun in thier life.

My comment is not meant to reflect on you, Glad you were up to the challenge of showing the masses the fun of black powder under very trying conditions!

Cheers,
Scott

 

[fredfiset]

First, these rules are not, in my opinion, made by idiots. On some site, parks staff use flintlock since the 70's.

Second, these are about the same procedure use in New York state parks, with the difference that in these park, flash guard and frizzen cover are mandatory and use of the ramrod is forbidden...

As for supplying the powder, well, it'S not a matter of powder, it's a matter of cartridge: i remember having seen a guy who used staples to close his cartridges and that's exactly what they don't want to see! And if you can have free cartridge...

I am involved in Seven Years War event since 10 years iand been to Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia and many states and we always prime firts and load after. Of course, we are doing military stuff, so we must comply to musket drill of the 18 century, written in such way to avoid incident on the battlefield and speed the process of loading/shooting.

So i think Park Canada rules makes some sense when there is many reenactors and spectators on site.

 

[Weapontech]

........written in such way to avoid incident on the battlefield and speed the process of loading/shooting.

I agree with you there fred....
I have been re-enacting, on and off with the Upper Thames Military Re-enactment Society (UTMRS, War of 1812) for a couple of years. I am very familiar with all the rules you have mentioned plus a number of others.

Like it or not, there are very solid reasons for each and every rule developed by Parks Canada to make all public events safe. From the moron shooting his ramrod at the enemy, to other incidences that have injured bystanders. You may think they don't make much sense, and very few people might be able to tell you why they exist.....but rest assured, they are there for a good reason.

 

[Weapontech]

Blowing down your barrel between shots (it was very hot weather) was also a no-no, something most ML rifle shooters will do as a safety measure.
Todd

Whoh....
I have been the Range Safety Officer for the Ontario Muzzle-Loading Association (OMLA) Provincial Championships in Chatham, Ontario every August for the last 8 years, and I have also participated in several shoots in Friendship, IND. and other US states.

Both the OMLA and NMLRA (National) organizations FORBID the act of blowing down barrels. Not only is it dangerous, but there is proof that doing so does nothing for safety. It may, in fact, encourage embers to continue to burn.
Swabbing between shots is still the best.

 

[Sharps '63]

Feedback

Thanks for the input, gentlemen.

First off, I didn't infer that the Parks Canada rules were made by idiots. And, as I mentioned, I am aware of the historic practice of priming a lock before loading.

However, not many would do this on a range without raising eyebrows. It can't be safe in one location and not elsewhere. Doing something for the sake of safety (no ram rods) while allowing something potentially unsafe is inconsistent.

None of you commented on the loading of cap locks at the half ####.

No speed loading was done as it is forbidden by the rules. The lock that always fired at Fort Langley was the Brown bess. It was HBC trade guns that had the problem. This proves nothing of course, but that huge flint on a Bess makes sparks!

I believe that where there is smoke, there is fire. I blow down my barrel (.58 Enfield) until smoke ceases. This also aids in softening powder fouling. Then I lower the hammer. I do agree that a damp swab (as per a cannon) between shots is the best method.
I do know of a case where a lady had a misfire and without thinking, blew down her barrel! Nothing is fool proof in the hands of a fool.

Does anyone know what the Canadian Firearms Safety Training Course (PAL) says about the loading of flintlocks and caplocks?

Todd

 

[sail32]

I agree, the person in Parks Canada, who set this up, does not know firearms, and I'll bet they don't have a P.A.L. I was there and the rule that the owner had to hold onto the firearms while it was being examed, was also crazy. I hope you foreward this whole post to the Headquarters of Parks Canada.

 

[Weapontech]

However, not many would do this on a range without raising eyebrows. It can't be safe in one location and not elsewhere.

You are right, of course.......that no-one would prime before loading. It is also a prohibited practice at any range I've been at. In re-enacting, it is done more for historacle accuracy than safety. In the real world, priming is ALWAYS done on the firing line after loading.

None of you commented on the loading of cap locks at the half ####.
Does anyone know what the Canadian Firearms Safety Training Course (PAL) says about the loading of flintlocks and caplocks?

I don't recall exactly what the PAL book says, but I remember that it goes into much detail about cartridge gun safety's being on during loading "when possible", I can't see it being any different for ML'ers.
I have ALWAYS loaded a flint-lock (frizzen open) and percussion lock at the half-####. Again, this is a standard range practice and is regulations for both the OMLA and NMLRA. It's also much easier when swabbing between shots, as the vacuum created by leaving the hammer on the nipple will sometimes suck the patch off the ram-rod back into the barrel!!

I believe that where there is smoke, there is fire. I blow down my barrel (.58 Enfield) until smoke ceases. This also aids in softening powder fouling.
I do know of a case where a lady had a misfire and without thinking, blew down her barrel! Nothing is fool proof in the hands of a fool.

Well, there is also a documented story of a gent who did exacty what you do......and blew down a barrel after firing and missing a yote he was hunting. He didn't know that there was sufficient unburned powder around the breech plug, that when the oxygen got down to the breech from the muzzle with him blowing on it......it ignited. It was only a small poof, but was enough to do permanent damage to his ears (not from the noise, but the pressure in his throat) and third degree burns in his mouth and throat.

IMO, it's not a smart practice no matter how you try to justify it.

 

[fredfiset]

We must remember that, on re-enactment, we don't use projectile. No bullet, no ramrod and most of the time, no paper. So there is nothing much left after the ignition. On most battle, we can shoot up to 40 cartridge of 110 grs with no need for cooling.

I guess that you way of doing is appropriate for what you are doing, but i maintain that Parks rules are appropriate for reenactment activities.

 

[fredfiset]

and I'll bet they don't have a P.A.L.

I don't know, but i sure remember from my P.A.L. course that you should never aim the barrel at somebody, less your own mouth.

I hope you foreward this whole post to the Headquarters of Parks Canada.

Done! The national coordonnator for historical firearms demo sould be able to comment as soon as possible.

 

[mooncoon]

Well, there is also a documented story of a gent who did exacty what you do......and blew down a barrel after firing and missing a yote he was hunting. He didn't know that there was sufficient unburned powder around the breech plug, that when the oxygen got down to the breech from the muzzle with him blowing on it......it ignited. It was only a small poof, but was enough to do permanent damage to his ears (not from the noise, but the pressure in his throat) and third degree burns in his mouth and throat.

I think that one qualifies for urban legend, at least as described. I have heard of cook offs (very rare) where a remaining spark ignited the next charge down and my guess is that what you are describing is a gun that was fired, new powder in and without thinking, blew down the barrel.

It sounds like Fort Langley did not make provision for anything but besses and trade guns relative to flintlocks. Priming first would not be historically accurate for a non military rifle or even for a trade gun for that matter.

relative to the ramrods, they did have an accident about 10 years ago, where a ramrod tip came unscrewed and remained in the bore, and subsequently struck someone.

In some ways I have been tempted to attend the Fort L event but sounds like to many rules to worry about as opposed to just being safe.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Weapontech]

I think that one qualifies for urban legend, at least as described. I have heard of cook offs (very rare) where a remaining spark ignited the next charge down and my guess is that what you are describing is a gun that was fired, new powder in and without thinking, blew down the barrel.

Oh I'm sure; although many of these stories have some basis in truth, regardless of the current accuracy. This one I quoted was from a copy of MuzzleBlasts that I read about 4-5 years ago.

Regardless of the story, the point still remains that putting your mouth over a "just fired" musket barrel is not a smart thing to do, and many if not all professional ML organizations north & south of the border realize this as well.

 

[tonyg]

Oh I'm sure; although many of these stories have some basis in truth, regardless of the current accuracy. This one I quoted was from a copy of MuzzleBlasts that I read about 4-5 years ago.

Regardless of the story, the point still remains that putting your mouth over a "just fired" musket barrel is not a smart thing to do, and many if not all professional ML organizations north & south of the border realize this as well.

when you hear of an actual , documented incident of injury from blowing down the barrel ,after discharge , please post it here. I suspect it will never happen. jmo....

safety nanny's , can't live without them , can we ?

 

[Sharps '63]

More Input

Again - thanks for the good input, gentlemen.

Anyone with any knowledge or experience with BP would have to regard the ignition of unburned BP by blowing down the barrel as 'urban legend' - more correctly 'rural legend', as urban people rarely shoot around home. Damned if I can get any unburned black powder to hang around. It wants to burn.

I have been present during a 'speed event' back in the bad ol' days when a shooter got burned when seating his next ball. The charge ignited and his hand got the benefit of the shattered ram rod and the blast. Not pretty.
We don't do that any more, for good reason.

Blowing down the barrel might have prevented that incident. I think the policy is more PC based than on safety reality. I once had a reference to historic flinters doing that, primarily to prove the vent clear. Wish I could remember where I found it.
They also used a small feather to clear it, the vanes acting like scrapers on the way out.

The incident at Fort Langley that sparked a lot of this brouhaha involved friends of mine. The ram rod used to load the pistol in question had a .38 Spl. cartridge case on it's end. It stayed in the barrel and when fired, lodged in the body of the victim. He now wears a collostomy bag. Tragic and like most accidents, avoidable.

I load my Enfields with the hammer down, but I'm going to try it with the hammer at half ####. I don't knock success, but it still flies in the face of accepted cannon loading basics. Other than bore size, what's the difference?

If Parks Canada is concerned about public perception, then loading a primed flintlock is wrong. If it isn't, why aren't they advocating loading a cap lock with a cap in place?

In any event, I'm not interested in playing their game for the sake of making some smoke and a little noise for a tourist photo-op. Not when Barkerville Historic Village allows us to do LIVE fire with our Enfields and 45-70s.

Todd

 

[Weapontech]

I load my Enfields with the hammer down, but I'm going to try it with the hammer at half ####. I don't knock success, but it still flies in the face of accepted cannon loading basics. Other than bore size, what's the difference?

A couple of differences:
Cannon's of any substantial bore diameter used blackpowder grain sizes significantly bigger than ffg or fffg used in BP firearms. The size of cannon powder grains means they are more likely to "charcoal" (i.e. stay glowing after firing).
The more accepted reason, is that BP charges for almost all ML cannons were contained in linen or linen/cotton bag charges. Once fired, the remnants of the bag were likely to still be burning in the gun barrel. (modern ML cannon loads use different materials for this very reason).
After firing, the No.1 of the crew sponged the barrel once the next load command was given by the gun captain. Crewman No. 3 held his thumb on the vent until the round was rammed home, and crewman 1 and 2 were clear of the muzzle.
The only time they deviated from standard practice was when firing cannister, usually because they were firing against charging infantry.

 

[Sharps '63]

Air flow

Weapontech

What you said is correct, however, the principle is the same - air flow during the loading process.
I have experienced resistance during the seating of a patched round ball in my Enfields; a 'bouncieness' telling me to slowly exert steady pressure to seat the ball. When this happens, it is my practice to check for proper seating before touching off the round.
I will try this with the hammer at half #### to see if it makes a difference. It isn't a matter of being right or wrong, or my way is better, it's results and safety that count.

Most cannoneers I know (the safe ones) use a foil and sometimes a double foil cartridge. Still, the ventsman does his function during the loading process.

I was at Fort Henry last summer and I believe that they use a foil cartridge inside a cloth bag for the Armstrong-Whitworth breechloaders they use. The charge is ignited by means of a friction tube igniter.
If memory serves, I believe they swabbed between rounds and the bore was checked by the master gunner before further action.
Watching the 24 pdr loaded and fired on the parapet is really an experience!
The gun crew commander was a female and there was no doubt who's gun it was.

Todd

 

[Weapontech]

Weapontech
.....It isn't a matter of being right or wrong, or my way is better, it's results and safety that count.

And with that Todd, we agree wholeheartedly! What makes you feel safer, is of course, not for me to judge. I am a stickler when it comes to safety & regulations for a number of reasons. The most important im my mind, is keeping our sport out of the headlines from accidents, etc. That just gives the anti's & Lieberals more reason to ban stuff!

Watching the 24 pdr loaded and fired on the parapet is really an experience!
The gun crew commander was a female and there was no doubt who's gun it was.

Oh agreed! I had a chance to view a battery live fire in Gettysburg in 2004. 6 Napolean 12 pounders, and over 100 men. It was also at dusk, which made it more impressive. Nothing like the impact of a solid-shot to make you glad you never had to fight in that kind of war.

Roger

 

[Musketfire]

And with that Todd, we agree wholeheartedly! What makes you feel safer, is of course, not for me to judge. I am a stickler when it comes to safety & regulations for a number of reasons. The most important im my mind, is keeping our sport out of the headlines from accidents, etc. That just gives the anti's & Lieberals more reason to ban stuff!



Me too....

Imagine what would happen if some noob blew down the tube and the result was a 3/4 oz lead ball through their head.

Now dont get mad...

I know some blow down the barrel with great result "and some who do have decades of experience on me"

I am only 30, and yet I just refuse to put my long lands 78 cal barell anywhere near my head in the presence of amunition,especially when I have been shooting 3/4 oz 69 cal lead ball all day.

Now before some newbie says anything.. in my smoothies I use undersized balls with thick patch, I like it, it works well ..Amen.

Blowing down the tube all your going to blow out is smoke at best and at worst maybe you will rekindle and enlarge a burning ember.

Anyhow do whats best for you, just for god sakes be as safe as possible, our muskets are the last bit of shooting democracy in this country.

Cheers

 

[JacquesT]

Park Canada has heck of a chalenge in controling the safety aspect of historical reenacting events....I support their efforts in regulating activities on their/our grounds...in my own opinion, they are ultimately responsible for what happens during their sponsorred events and therefore they must be clear in their rules...safety first, don't run with sizors or with a muzzle up you mouth!