Passchendaele... Ross or Enfield

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Talquin

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just saw previews in the theater for Passchendaele and I was just curious if the director got something right. I am seeing a lot of canadian troops in the movie carrying a enfield rifle. I know we started out the war with the Ross rifle but I clearly see the movie showing Enfield's.

Did we end up using them on a regular basis once we got to that point in the war or did the director make a goof.
 
Directors right on the Enfields, by 1916/17 the Ross was removed from Frontline service except for a handfull of Sniper's rifles. German kit on the other hand is very poor from the brief glimpses I saw.
 
The Battle of Passchendaele, also known as the Third Battle of Ypres or simply Third Ypres, was one of the major battles of World War I and occured in 1917. the generally accepted dates are 11 July 1917 – 10 November 1917.

At this point, the whole of the Canadian Forces on the western front were equipped with the ShtMLE MkIII and ShtMLE MkIII* (the rifles were not reneamed to No.1MkIII/MkIII* until 1928).

The shortcomings of the Ross rifle were made apparent during the Second Battle of Ypres in April 1915. The rifle showed poor tolerance of dirt when used in field conditions, particularly the screw threads operating the bolt lugs, jamming the weapon open or closed.

By the time of the Somme battles of July 1916, Sir Douglas Haig, the new Commander-in-Chief of the British Expeditionary Force, had ordered the replacement of all Ross rifles in the three Canadian Divisions by the Lee-Enfield, which was finally available in quantity.

So to make a long answer short, by 1917 there were virtually no Ross rifles at the front with the exception of a few rifles retained for special purposes like duty at the rear or for sharpshooting.
 
JP said:
Directors right on the Enfields, by 1916/17 the Ross was removed from Frontline service except for a handfull of Sniper's rifles. German kit on the other hand is very poor from the brief glimpses I saw.
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I don't know if true, but I heard they mostly used Turkish Mausers to equip the Germans. I doubt they even bothered to fit mocked-up Lange-Vizier sights to them.

It would have been a small thing to get Persian mausers or Czech M98/22's from US props suppliers and to fit dummy L-V sights. Guess it wasn't a high priority for them. Hopefully they did some closeups with real G98's, but I'm not expecting to see hat when I go to the film - sadly.
 
Perhaps the threaded bolt was the downfall of the Ross. Does any other action use this type? I got to see a Schmidt-Ruben pic or two and saw their straight-pull used more standard locking lugs. What about the Steyr M95?
 
303carbine ; i think EVERYONE who had a grandparent in the wars wishes that they had the uniform and weapons from those situations.

I was lucky enough to get my grandfathers belt and a uncle has all the medals.

Thanks for the quick reply guys. I figure that they would have had enfields by then but i wasn't sure. The german firearms didn't suprise me though. I'll admit I am not a know it all when it comes to mausers but i knew they weren't the right ones. At least they are using the proper enfields.

Just wait, we'll spot a type 4 or type 3 in the props.
 
Well, I've seen some of the Enfields up close in promo photos. Most look to be ww2 era FTR's and post-war Ishapores with the tie-plate in the forestock. Some seem to have Ishy screws and square-eared nosecaps. None of the rifles I saw had a correctly profiled pot-belly forestock used universally prior to 1920.

That being said, the average viewer will be nowhere near as nitpicky as I am. At least they actually had MkIII*'s as opposed to the No.4's you sometiems see in movies supposedly representing ww1.
 
The "Blue Max" was filmed in Ireland. The Germans were actually Irish soldiers with their issue No4s and No9 bts and Irish issue Vickers made stahlheims.
 
there were no ross rifles on set during the filming of the movie. the mausers were turk mausers, they could not get real G98's because of some ephed up export restrictions from the united states. so they had to scramble and found the turk mausers in winnipeg. the bayo lugs on our turk mausers were actually welded on, some of them started to sag.

the lee enfields used were a mix of lithgows, lots of ishis and a few from before the first world war. i always checked the date of the rifle i was using on a particular day, and i recall one day using one from 1911 that still had the cutoff.
 
I wonder where the Ishapores came from? Unlike the USA, Ishapores seem comparatively uncommon in quantity in Canada.

Aside from a small recent batch now being sold through P&S and Epps, I almost never see them for sale.

Also odd they found turk Mausers in Winnipeg. We haven't seen Turks at retail since 1999-2000 or so. Were they at a prop house?
 
Talquin said:
303carbine ; i think EVERYONE who had a grandparent in the wars wishes that they had the uniform and weapons from those situations.

I was lucky enough to get my grandfathers belt and a uncle has all the medals.

Thanks for the quick reply guys. I figure that they would have had enfields by then but i wasn't sure. The german firearms didn't suprise me though. I'll admit I am not a know it all when it comes to mausers but i knew they weren't the right ones. At least they are using the proper enfields.

Just wait, we'll spot a type 4 or type 3 in the props.
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I read my Grandfathers attestation papers,he is the same height.
So if I ever did get the uniform,I could wear it. I would not because I wouldn't want to damage it.
The Ross rifle with the bayo would be nice too along with his medals and the rest of his military issue equipment.
 
"...and the rest of his military issue equipment..." All of which was turned in when he was discharged.
"...I could wear it..." You likely outweigh him by a considerable amount.
 
Claven2 said:
I wonder where the Ishapores came from? Unlike the USA, Ishapores seem comparatively uncommon in quantity in Canada.

Aside from a small recent batch now being sold through P&S and Epps, I almost never see them for sale.

Also odd they found turk Mausers in Winnipeg. We haven't seen Turks at retail since 1999-2000 or so. Were they at a prop house?
Click to expand...

Maybe I can answer a few questions as we brought the rifles in for this and supplied the machine guns and armourer.
The Enfields we sourced out of Nepal believe it or not.But they had a large quantity and weren't ready to split it up.So we got Century on board and they bought it and shipped us the 100 that we needed.Unfortunately the US wouldn't issue a permanent export liscence(weapons of war with bayonette lugs) so we had to ship them all back after the film was finished.A real shame.
We had a line on some actual G98's that were coming from somewhere in south america if I remember correctly but again they were going through someone in the US.When they arrived in the US,they found that most were packed in 6ft blocks of cosmoline still.As they slowly unpacked them they realized that some were in unissued condition.So they decided to be a little more carefull and go through the shipment and high grade them,which was going to take too long(the movie was already getting under way).So as a last resort the Turks were rented from a great movie gun comany back east(not Winnipeg).No they didn't have the proper sights on them and there was neither time nor the money to make mock up sights for them.So they were used as is which will pretty much only be obvious to all of us gun nutz. :)
 
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