Percussion to Flintlock Coversion?

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kevinh

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Greetings everyone!
Hope you are all safe.

I've dreamed about owning a double barrel flintlock rifle but I'm only aware of double barrel flintlock shotguns that are currently being made.

There is just something romantic about flintlock muzzleloaders!


Does anyone know if you can convert the Pedersoli Kodiak Express MK VI Double-Barrel Percussion Rifle to flintlock?


Cabelas Link:

https://www.cabelas.com/product/sho...barrel-percussion-rifles/2319080.uts?slotId=7


It seems like from www.muzzleloadingforum.com that converting percussion to flintlock is not a new idea, but some percussion rifle designs make it harder or maybe not possible for conversion.


Does anyone have some opinions or advice?

If you think you know a gunsmith that can do the work, please share their info and I will contact them :)


Thanks so much for reading this!
Be well fellow GunNutz!

Regards,
Kevin H.
 
This photo was posted of a Pietta percussion shotgun converted to flint, using a pair of L&R locks.
A serious undertaking.
No idea who would undertake such a job.

IMG_2407_zps928952cb Flint double.jpg
 

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I believe that the conversion requires making new breech plugs. These have to be longer, to allow room for the locks to fit against the flats on the plugs. This shifts the barrels forward, so the underlug on the barrel must be relocated.
I have one of the Pietta/Navy Arms double shotguns, which I think was the model converted. It would not be an undertaking for the faint of heart.
 
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You may find builders in the US that can provide one or find one for sale south of the border on US muzzleloader forums. Either converting or buying ready built is going to be $$$.
 
The work would cost you more than the cost of the gun .... you are looking at a USA site there, I don't see it in cabelas.ca catalog. probably around $1800 after shipping taxes and exchange ... maybe you could find one in Canada.

What you need:

replace both locks - hopping you can find ones of similar size/shape so that they can be inlet without gaps. $300USD + inletting/shop time

If you can't find similar locks, you need lock kits which need to have the lock plates modified to fit - $300USD + shop time.

This is assuming either options sear bars will line up with your triggers - if not, a trigger job, $??? really depends. bank on $100 at least.

Last lock option would be to modify the existing ones, replacing the hammers and adding pans and frizzons. parts - about $150USD, work.... probably a good $300

Assuming that all works out, on to the barrels, yes, you would probably have to make new breech plugs, but shouldn't have to relocate the barrel. (I've done it before) new plugs, just shop time, $150(ish) then you would need to refinish/reblue $200

So you are looking around $1100 hard costs + shop time which will vary depending on how much of a pain in the ass the project is.

Hard news, sorry for the parade raining.... if you wanted a double shotgun you have much more options for flint. Generally you see the flints being converted to percussion, not the other way around (a much simpler process)

The good news is that for $2900 you have a good start on a custom build double rifle.
 
The member on muzzleloadingforum.com that posted photos of his shotgun converted to flintlock was "No Deer".
The gun that No Deer converted had locks shaped very much like traditional English locks.
The Mk. 6 rifle as shown in Cabela's listing has locks with a different profile.
No Deer's conversion was able to use L&R locks. I have no idea if the Kodiak's locks are similar enough in shape to allow replacement with L&Rs.
Here is the model of Pietta/Navy Arms gun that No Deer converted.

001.jpg
002.jpg

I think that this is the L&R lock used in the conversion.

late english locks .jpg

Here is the Pedersoli:

Pedersoli.jpg

Note how different the lock shape and breech configuration is, compared with the Pietta.
 

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Pedersoli makes a 20ga double flint shotgun and I rremember them saying that in the future they might offer a double rifle version.You could possibly buy one and line the barrels but it would be extremely expensive and barrel regulation might be a problem

image.jpg
 
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tiriaq, thanks for the photo and the break down of what's needed!

Hey, theDuck, thanks for the advice! If I don't fall in love with this swivel type kit, I should totally inquire on some American forums

sean69, Wow, thanks so much for: 1. the break down of costs (was your $2900 figure just the hard costs and shop time? - then I still need to acquire the rifle right?
2. Thank so much for that video. WOW, a swivel type double flintlock rifle in a kit! I might consider this.
Which one do you like more a side by side or swivel? What do you think the pro's and con's are?


Hey again, tiriaq, thanks for another reply. Okay, maybe I will seek out No Deer and ask him some questions :)

Hey again, sean69, Wow, good idea, I will email them now :)

Hey chasseur, thanks for your reply! I sent an email to them and maybe they will reveal if they are coming out with a double flintlock rifle soon :)


Thanks everyone! I love the look of a double barrel, but damn I might save up for that swivel kit :)

Have a wonderful weekend everyone :)

******** EDIT******* ---> Thanks everyone for the photos, they didn't show up earlier, I want reply with a new post but don't want to be accused of spamming this sub forum haha

Will post tonight or tomorrow with just a few questions.
 
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L&R offers replacement locks for CVA; Thompson Center; Dixie Tennessee; Lyman/Investarms; and Hatfield. No mention of Pedersoli.

CVA did offer a percussion double shotgun/double rifle which appears to have used their standard percussion lock. That might be a possibility for a flint conversion.

Davis doesn't seem to have much in the way of left hand flintlocks.
 
Hey people,

Thanks again for your replies/advice!
Much appreciated.

I've emailed L&R locks to see if they have locks that work or have any advice.

Also, I've emailed David Price, to see if he still has that kit for sale.

As well, I just emailed R.E. Davis.


So, I have a few questions for you experienced CGN'ers.

1. Do you think the swivel action will shoot loose?
On another forum, they mentioned a swivel type rifle by Leonard Day has an adjustment
feature. I wonder if the one by David Price also has this ability.


2. What do you guys think would be more accurate, the side by side Pedersoli?
I think it has two rear sights, but could be wrong.

Or does it make sense the swivel action will be more accurate?
I can't see where the rear sights are on the David Price model.

Found a video by on the Pedersoli on youtube. It looks pretty consistent!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCTBsVz-MQs

Thanks so much again!
Hope you are all having a great weekend!

Cheers,
Kevin H.
 
kevinh said:
2. What do you guys think would be more accurate, the side by side Pedersoli?
I think it has two rear sights, but could be wrong.

Or does it make sense the swivel action will be more accurate?
.
Click to expand...

Swivel breaches have sights on each barrel and that means that you do not have to worry about regulating them. The later Kodiak rifles had separate rear sights to get around regulating the barrels. I would find that a nuisance to have to deliberately choose which rear sight to use

cheers mooncoon
 
There are double barreled American long rifles. They often had sights on each barrel. Easier solution than regulating a pair of barrels to use a single set of sights.
Years ago, I had a German swivel breech combination gun, probably made late 1700s. The swivel mechanism was rather basic, with a bit of play. Unless a take-up system were incorporated in the mechanism, I would expect a bit of play to develop over time. Don't know that it would affect performance.
 
Here is the now discontinued CVA double shotgun:

CVA double.jpg

Note the geometry of the locks. This might actually be an easier gun to convert to flint. The gun was also offered as a .50 double rifle.

Here is a photo of the CVA flint lock:

CVA flintlock.jpg

The L&R CVA RPL LOCK:

L&R RPL CVA.jpg

The CVA might very well be a conversion option. But it would require finding a discontinued gun, buying a pair of locks, and making new breeches for the barrels. A very serious project, that would not be inexpensive.
 

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kevinh said:
sean69, Wow, thanks so much for: 1. the break down of costs (was your $2900 figure just the hard costs and shop time? - then I still need to acquire the rifle right?
2. Thank so much for that video. WOW, a swivel type double flintlock rifle in a kit! I might consider this.
Which one do you like more a side by side or swivel? What do you think the pro's and con's are?
Click to expand...

That was pretty **ballpark** and pretty conservative at that, all depends on what exchange looks like at the time, who does the work and whether or not you get tagged with duty/tax at the border.

That being said the $2900 guess was including the gun.

I have been working on my own design for a swivel breech for a few months now, sooooo... definitely swivel ;)

The design is based heavily on David Price's kit and David Waters kit... there are issues with both of them, things I definitely don't like...



kevinh said:
1. Do you think the swivel action will shoot loose?
On another forum, they mentioned a swivel type rifle by Leonard Day has an adjustment
feature. I wonder if the one by David Price also has this ability.
Click to expand...

David Price's kit uses a nylock nut and bronze bushing to maintain tension between the swivel plates and stock, it should need very little adjustment ever.
David Waters is using a crown nut of sorts under tension - I don't have much faith in that design other than it's ability to cause wear on the swivel threads...

In either case I would not expect the plates to come loose (play) during a day or two of shooting, just check tension when cleaning.
If they were to come loose regularly, loctite, a second locking nut and thrust washer ... etc. I'm actually tinkering with the idea of using a spring.


kevinh said:
2. What do you guys think would be more accurate, the side by side Pedersoli?
I think it has two rear sights, but could be wrong.

Or does it make sense the swivel action will be more accurate?
I can't see where the rear sights are on the David Price model.
Click to expand...

I thought I saw centered peep rear sight on the pedersoli, check this video out, it goes right into the sight arrangement on the Kodiak:

As for the swivel, you can have 2 different calibres sighted for 2 different distances (you can have 2 different calibres in the SxS as well) or different loads for the same calibre, a popular one is a rifled barrel and a fowling barrel... etc.

David P is using open/iron sights - which is traditional, though you can put darn near anything you want on there

Accuracy? well, that's kinda up to you isn't it? ;)
 
chasseur, thanks for tip!

thanks mooncoon, for the clarification and information.

tiriaq, thanks for sharing your experience and the photos (research)

Thanks sean69, for the details. Good luck with your build! And thanks for the video link

sail32, thanks so much for the link! I guess the guy gave up eh?

-----

So David Price is sold out of the kits, and is not sure if he will do more.

L&R, said the hardest part (like in sail32's link) is changing the breeches to flint.
Tim from L&R said if that first part was dealt with, he would try to find a lock that would work, including but not limited to the Durs Egg, Manton or late English flint.

Not sure if I mentioned, the rifle wouldn't be for hunting just some casual target practice in the future (no rush on the purchase/build).

Pedersoli, says they might to a side by side flintlock rifle in the future.


Thanks again everyone. Kind of lost which direction I should research more :)

Hope you all have a great new week!
Cheers :)
 
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