Picking a Blackpowder Cartridge Rifle

[Rod B]

I shoot black powder muzzle loaders and revolvers as well so I totally agree with you. But I must admit that I have not had the pleasure of shooting black powder .45-70 cartridge rifles. But (again) I do agree that it would be far more tolerable to my apparently shaky disposition to shoulder a gun shooting proper black stuff.

My reluctance to do this is that much of my setting up and load testing is aimed at using my long distance single shot guns for SASS side match long range shooting. And the string of 10 to 12 shots needed really doesn't lend itself to shooting black powder for serious accuracy given that I don't have the time to swab the bore between shots or indeed at all during that string of shots.

This obviously doesn't prevent me from doing some BP rounds for giggles. And I'm keen on that. But I'm still waiting on that darn shipment of "round tuits" to arrive. I think they are on back order.

I'm sure you're right though and I'd find BP rounds to be just fine. But the folks that let me try their Sharps rifles were all in the same boat as me. SASS side match shooters primarily with their guns. So they all used smokeless for the same reason I wrote above.

On the other hand if I knew I could spit out a fouling shot or two and that the rifles would remain consistent for the scored string of shots I could easily be talked into using proper BP loads. In fact I'd really enjoy smoking the whole shooting line....

There is a cure to the fouling situation. I use a duplex charge, 5 gr of SR4759 or IMR 4198 in the bottom of the case topped with 45 to 50gr of FFG black powder. I then use a thin card wad & compress the charge about .150. Top this with a 500 gr cast bullet, I use one cast from a 457125 Lyman mould.
I have fired up to 20 of these without swabbing the barrel & they are very accurate.

 

[BCRider]

Thanks Rod. I've added that to my .38-55 loading notes for the future. A very interesting technique.

I'll also keep it in mind for if I ever satisfy another itch to get a trapdoor. Those just don't seem to come by chambered in my preference of .38-55. So to get to play with one I may need to add .45-70 to the list of cartridges.

 

[Rod B]

You're welcome. I would like to acquire a .38/55 some day, a friend shoots one & it is very accurate.

 

[Sharps '63]

I recently bought a Pedersoli '74 Sharps "Silhouette" model in 45-70 from Mar Star during their 20% off sale. It was so rough that it went back in the box the same day for return along with a letter listing it's deficiencies, copied to Dr. Pedersoli.

- Rough machining marks on the front of the receiver
- improperly shaped loading trough
- sharp edges on the lever
- a gap of 3/32's between the lock plate and the receiver
- incorrect shaping of the lock plate
- the finish on the wood looked like paint.

The wood to metal fit was good and the barrel had a nice crown, not historically correct. This rifle was an embarrassment and should not have left the factory.

Lest you think I'm judging too harshly, I currently own six Shiloh '74 rifles, a mix of Farmingdale and current models, so I have a fair idea as to what constitutes a Sharps rifle.

It took a month to get the refund, less return shipping costs. In the meantime, I bought a Shiloh 45-70 #1 Sporter off their 'ready rack', no waiting save for the importing process and no premium paid to a speculator. The rifle exhibits typical Shiloh quality and has all the bells, gongs and whistles I want or need and is not a disappointment in any way, shape or form.

I never go to the range without shooting 30-40 rds of BP silhouette loads with 520 gr bullets. Now that it's getting warm, I will be wearing a PAST 'sissy pad' to lessen felt recoil when shooting from prone cross-sticks. The 45-70 recoils noticeably lighter than a 45-90 and considerably less than a 45-110 or 45-120, which is why it is the darling of the BPCR Silhouette game.

You cannot go wrong with a Pedersoli. Extremely well made and very good customer service even from Italy. There is a 45-70 carbine for sale on the EE, but you may just want a rifle.

 

[stevejones]

My most accurate black powder cartridge gun is a Shiloh "Old Reliable" percussion in 54 caliber. It needs about 110 grains of powder (yes I cheat. I put 20 grains of cream of wheat in first when I'm not in the mood to punish myself...) and of course, it prefers a heavy bullet (Pedresoli, can't recall what#) so if you are recoil shy (smart?) it is not the gun for you. That being said, it is very accurate. I use a blow tube between shots and it definitely keeps fouling down. A substantial decrease in recoil can be had by using 1F.

Cheers. SJ

 

[Sharps '63]

At the last SASS Champs held at Mission, BC, I was the only shooter to be using BP in the SS LR event. Using a duplex load would have been beneficial. I do that occasionally and it does offer a longer string than 100% BP before bore swabbing becomes necessary.

The match could easily be done to allow time for bore swabbing between distances. The rifles were designed and intended for BP loads and SASS is supposed to be about shooting Cowboy guns - right? Shiloh voids their warranty if you shoot anything other than factory made smokeless loads in their rifles chambered for rds like the 30-40 Gov't and 45-70.

The "Quigley" match at Forsythe, Montana has suffered a few rifle blow ups to the point where consideration is being given to disallowing smokeless ammunition. Some BPCR shooters will not attend for that reason. People cannot trusted to do the right thing with regard to safety and you can't check everyone's loads with absolute assurance.

Besides - did Matthew Quigley use smokeless in the movie?

I sold a beautifully made Shiloh '63 .54 Sporter as it was a bear to shoot unless you used a filler, something I just couldn't be bothered to do.

 

[BCRider]

Sharps, if you shot at Mission have you also shot the long distance side match up at the Palmer's Gulch event? The way they run it there's simply no time for anything but shooting and rushing to adjust the sights for the next distance in that string of shots. So this duplex load idea could or would be just the thing if it keeps the fouling more consistent over the dozen or so shots.

 

[fingers284]

My most accurate black powder cartridge gun is a Shiloh "Old Reliable" percussion in 54 caliber. It needs about 110 grains of powder (yes I cheat. I put 20 grains of cream of wheat in first when I'm not in the mood to punish myself...) and of course, it prefers a heavy bullet (Pedresoli, can't recall what#) so if you are recoil shy (smart?) it is not the gun for you. That being said, it is very accurate. I use a blow tube between shots and it definitely keeps fouling down. A substantial decrease in recoil can be had by using 1F.

Cheers. SJ

Pics of that one pls. LOL

 

[Sharps '63]

I've never indulged in the Hefley Creek CAS LR SS event as I didn't care for the way they were running it. Alternating shooters to allow bore wiping is not rocket science. It can also be allowed after a string of 5 rds.

The 500m range of the Quesnel Rod Gun club is a good venue for BPCR's, save for the fact that like Hefley, you are shooting up hill at the longest distances. Prince George now has a 1000m rifle range on the Blackwater and they I tend to host some LR BPCR events this year.

Sharps, if you shot at Mission have you also shot the long distance side match up at the Palmer's Gulch event? The way they run it there's simply no time for anything but shooting and rushing to adjust the sights for the next distance in that string of shots. So this duplex load idea could or would be just the thing if it keeps the fouling more consistent over the dozen or so shots.

 

[sealevel]

trade x has a bunch of 50-70s on a rolling block...cheap 600 bucks that will get you in the game .

 

[Sharps '63]

These will be chambered in a Scandinavian cartridge that approximates the 50-70. The ROT will not stabilize heavier bullets than the original cartridge.

trade x has a bunch of 50-70s on a rolling block...cheap 600 bucks that will get you in the game .

 

[Mr.Rigpig]

I put a WTB ad in antiques and blackpowder, in case any of you are buried in buffalo guns.

Have you read Mike Venturino's book Shooting Buffalo rifles of the old west? If not, if you are interested, I will send you my copy and then just mail er back when your done....

 

[ken1989]

I own and shoot several high walls (originals and reproductions) from 32-40 to 45-90. Recently acquired a Pedersoli HW in 38-55, shotgun stock with cheek piece and a 6 grooves, 1-12 twist, 30" barrel. It shot okay with 315 gr bullets. Had a custom made 370 gr #2 Elliptical bullet mold made and this gun now shoot unbelievably well. So far I have shot it out to 300 meters with excellent results, but plan to try it at 500 yd and 1000 yd. If interested in this bullet google "38 Cal Paul Jones #2 Elliptical" or PM me.

 

[gunlaker]

Ken who made your mold? Or did you get it from Paul Jones before he retired?

I have a heavy PJ .38 mold but I'm not sure which one. It's almost all nose. I should post a picture of it on the Shiloh forum and see if anyone can identify it.

It's good to hear that rifle is shooting well for you.

Chris.

 

[ken1989]

Ken who made your mold? Or did you get it from Paul Jones before he retired?

I have a heavy PJ .38 mold but I'm not sure which one. It's almost all nose. I should post a picture of it on the Shiloh forum and see if anyone can identify it.

It's good to hear that rifle is shooting well for you.

Chris.

Hi Chris; Boomer Molds made this mold for me about a month ago. I sent him a drawing of the mold. There is very little loading data available for the 38-55 with very heavy bullets. Always interested in tweaking my loads. Ken

 

[Dogleg]

Have you read Mike Venturino's book Shooting Buffalo rifles of the old west? If not, if you are interested, I will send you my copy and then just mail er back when your done....

I'm not sure if I did or not, I have read some of his stuff.

Still exploring options; but was shooting a 34 " Shiloh 45/90 yesterday with black. Based on that, 45/90s and military butt-plates are still in the running, there's no real kick at all. Hell, leaving out the twisting it barely moves.

 

[Sharps '63]

How many rds in a session? I've seen guys shoot 45-110's for a few rds, but never the number required for a silhouette match.

I'm not sure if I did or not, I have read some of his stuff.

Still exploring options; but was shooting a 34 " Shiloh 45/90 yesterday with black. Based on that, 45/90s and military butt-plates are still in the running, there's no real kick at all. Hell, leaving out the twisting it barely moves.

 

[Dogleg]

How many rds in a session? I've seen guys shoot 45-110's for a few rds, but never the number required for a silhouette match.

I not sure how many shots I took, the owner took the best part of fifty. His load is a 535 Postel and all the Swiss 1 1/2F the case holds. I know he shoots silhouette with it. One thing I know for sure is I shot over 100 rounds of mixed center-fire at the same time, and of the 5 rifles I rotated through only the 6 PPC bench gun kicked less. Even a relatively heavy Cooper 30-06 had considerably more recoil than the Quigley look alike. (Except for being a 45/90 instead of 45/110)

With a few windage sighters and judicious spotting it was quite capable of keeping its shots on my steel IPSC silhouettes at 650 yards. I'd have to do some front sight experimenting of it was going to be a habit.

 

[gunlaker]

To me the .45-90 is a bit overkill for silhouette, but one of the best silhouette shooters of all time uses one interestingly. I think the .45-90 is best suited for long range BPTR or gong shoots. One thing to think about is that the 34" barreled Shiloh wouldn't make legal weight for a silhouette rifle unless it was a standard weight barrel ( or if it was scoped. Scoped silhouette rifles can be heavier ).

If the stock is shaped right for you, and the rifle's weight is good then the .45-90 is a nice cartridge. I shoot two .45-90's. Both highwalls. One is a 13 lb pistol gripped rifle and is quite comfortable to shoot, even with heavy bullets at 1350 fps. The other doesn't fit me well and is only a little more than 11 lbs. It's uncomfortable to shoot if I were to do a full match with it.

If you want one then go for it . I've never regretted buying a Shiloh. Although I have one that I wish had a Long Range Express stock rather than a #3.

I actually have another Shiloh on order that will either be a 1:16 twist 34" heavy .45-90, or a 1:16 twist 32" heavy .45-70. I just haven't made up my mind yet.

Chris.

 

[Dogleg]

Well, I have a Pedersoli Creedmoore roller on the way. That should get my feet wet, and we'll see where it goes from there.