Picture of the day

One of the great blessings of my life is never knowing an experience like that. God bless your Grandpa, Grelmar. I hope he's at peace.

Back from Ops, 1942:

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That kid isn't thirty yet.

He looks like he just started to shave, likely because the military made him, whether he needed it or not.
 
I've mentioned it before, but my Grampa ended up as a welder for the RCAF. Spent the war in North Ontario bopping between the international training aerodromes, working on the crash crews, cutting kids (or what was left) out of their trainers when they failed their solos. Only bits and pieces of that ever came up in conversation, when he was that special kind of drunk. Decent enough fella, worked hard to put food on the table for his family, never raised a hand to his wife or my dad, drank himself to sleep every night until cancer took him in his late 70's.

I wonder how all the bomber command radio gals fared after the war, listening in for hours on end and pushing markers across the map tables.


I read a book about one of those girls.

It was fictional of course but it was one of those tales you just knew had some real life experience behind it.

The girl in the story, just 17, got a job after enlisting in the British Army as an ''operations board'' indicator. She couldn't reply to the information she received on her headset, just indicate positions on the board in "real time" or whatever that was back then.

In most cases, the position reports came directly from the lead aircraft navigator, which is indicative of some of the things she heard.

She had to be relieved from the duty after six months and from what was stated in the book, she lasted longer than most.

For those that have heard the sounds and screams of those close to death or dieing in great agony?????????? It's hard to describe unless you've been there and done that.

Doesn't matter if it's an enemy combatant either.

Most that weren't wounded or especially burned suffered their FEAR in silence.
 
Copy/paste this from the movie thread.
Gives ya an idea what the young lads endured.

Raiders in the Sky (1953) 7.5/10

Wing Commander Tim Mason leads a squadron of Lancaster bombers on nightly raids from England.
The Lancasters used were NX673, NX679, and NX782. These aircraft also took part in the filming of The Dam Busters (1955).
Wonder if 'Top Gun' borrowed the beginning part form this movie...



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Copy/paste this from the movie thread.
Gives ya an idea what the young lads endured.

Haven't seen that one... I'll add it to the list.

Can anyone remember a film I'm about to describe badly:

40's, possibly 50's era. American officer takes over a wing of bombers that's been doing poorly - low morale, lots of turnbacks for mechanical errors the ground crews can't track down, early drops from the wing and turning around because of weather, etc. etc. The new commander comes in to shake things up. Gets things sorted and the wing starts connecting with solid drops, every plane active for every mission. But as he slowly records the tally of crews not making it back, over time it starts eating at him, starts letting off the pressure on the crews, not questioning early drops, planes turning back with mystery engine faults, etc., until the higher command decides it's time to rotate in another commander...

Damned if I can remember the name of the movie. Saw it ages ago and it always stuck with me, the burden that officer carried sending of you men to uncertain fates.
 
Haven't seen that one... I'll add it to the list.

Can anyone remember a film I'm about to describe badly:

40's, possibly 50's era. American officer takes over a wing of bombers that's been doing poorly - low morale, lots of turnbacks for mechanical errors the ground crews can't track down, early drops from the wing and turning around because of weather, etc. etc. The new commander comes in to shake things up. Gets things sorted and the wing starts connecting with solid drops, every plane active for every mission. But as he slowly records the tally of crews not making it back, over time it starts eating at him, starts letting off the pressure on the crews, not questioning early drops, planes turning back with mystery engine faults, etc., until the higher command decides it's time to rotate in another commander...

Damned if I can remember the name of the movie. Saw it ages ago and it always stuck with me, the burden that officer carried sending of you men to uncertain fates.

Gregory Peck in 12 O'Clock High (1949)??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_O'Clock_High
 

Yes, that's the one, thanks!

Haven't seen it since the 80's, I had it stuck in my head that Jimmy Stewart played the lead, because of his long association with the USAF, but that was a dead end when I looked up his filmography on IMDB. The gist of the movie stuck with me over the years, and I wanted to give it a re-watch with older man's eyes, and see if it hit me differently now.
 
Yes, that's the one, thanks!

Haven't seen it since the 80's, I had it stuck in my head that Jimmy Stewart played the lead, because of his long association with the USAF, but that was a dead end when I looked up his filmography on IMDB. The gist of the movie stuck with me over the years, and I wanted to give it a re-watch with older man's eyes, and see if it hit me differently now.

Excellent movie I've caught it twice in the last five yrs on TCM...the first and last scenes in the movie especially poignant, Ex O officer riding around an abandoned forgotten (except by a few), grass overgrown aerodrome on a bicycle with squadron mascot mug in the basket.
 
Also did a TV series of 12 O'Clock High 3 seasons. (1964–1967)

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Yeah they canceled the show because they used actual combat footage for a lot of the scenes, which caused a lot of distress for some people.

They also purchased an actual fleet of B17s as surplus, that were all in flying condition.

When the show folded, the planes were sold off as scrap metal. Nobody really wanted them, other than a few well heeled private collectors.
 
There's that near-to-last scene in 12 O'Clock High where the CO is about to board his aircraft and finds he just can't. Body won't do it. He's had enough, and systems outside of his control are now demanding an end to what he's going through.

Were he RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF or other Commonwealth flier, he'd run the risk of being labelled "Low Moral Fiber". LMF meant transfer out of the unit and the remainder of the war spent performing the lowest ground duties - kitchen prep, sweeping floors, swabbing out the bog. Damned unkind, and indicative of a very weak appreciation for certain psychological realities.

This from a paper on that policy:

David Sta!ord-Clark summarized the experience of an aircrew on a night raid over Germany. He writes,
“Danger from the enemy, from sudden blinding convergence of searchlights accompanied by heavy, accurate and torrential "ak, from packs of night fighters seeking unceasingly to find and penetrate the bomber stream; of danger from collision, from ice in the cloud, from becoming lost or isolated, from a chance hit in a petrol tank leading to a loss of fuel and forced descent into the sea on the way back… there was no single moment of security from takeoff to touchdown.”

The terror of these raids as well as their high attrition rates pushed Bomber Command’s psychological wastage much higher than that of Fighter Command, sparking Command’s concerns. As psychological casualties began to mount during the bomber offensive, Command and the government had no clear idea as to the reasons underlying the significant increase of neuroses amongst their fliers. In its reaction, Command looked not to the reality of the flying experience, but rather to assumptions about the character of these men.

There's a lot in there about "stiff upper lip" and class and "dying like a man" and all that other bullsh!t. Truth is, we all have limits. We all manage stress differently and some can take more than others. If your job forces you to find peace in the idea you're already dead and so needn't worry about dying anymore, how in the hell does a person come back from something like that? What's civilian life look like for someone who's "known" he's dead for three years and yet still walks around, eats, sh!ts, sleeps, breathes...

This might help explain why some of our grandfathers preferred not to speak of those times. Hard to look back on the memories of the Ops you flew when you were a dead man in a Halifax over occupied Europe, then look your precious grandchild in the face. Too much of a switch in mindset to handle gracefully. How much of that burden do you want to drop on this kid you love?

Some guys handled it well. Leonard Cheshire was an ice-blooded goddamn hero. Guy Gibson knew his sh!t and flew as often as he could until he made one mistake and died in a Mosquito. Robert Clothier (middle back row in the following photo) flew 56 ops across two tours with 408 Squdron, came home, was the sole survivor of a B25 crash off the end of the runway at Boundary Bay, was paralyzed from the waist down for two years, and then played Relic on The Beachcombers for 27 seasons.

Relic20.jpeg


Other aircrew lasted three trips and flat out could not do it even one more time. Were they cowards? Maybe some were. But I can't judge these men. I'm not qualified and I daresay neither are you. I've never been placed in a position where I had to suit up and go sit in a cold dark aluminum tube high above thousands of capable people all of whom wished me dead and had the equipment to make that happen. Not even once. Imagine doing that thirty times. Imagine losing friends almost every op. It happened to him. Why wouldn't it happen to me. Why not me?

How soon? Tonight?

This is the sort of thing I remember every November 11th.
 
This might help explain why some of our grandfathers preferred not to speak of those times. Hard to look back on the memories of the Ops you flew when you were a dead man in a Halifax over occupied Europe, then look your precious grandchild in the face. Too much of a switch in mindset to handle gracefully. How much of that burden do you want to drop on this kid you love?

Very true. My friends uncle was a AG in bomber command and wouldn’t speak at all about his experiences when asked. He wouldn’t have any part of describing his time in the war.

My father only mentioned a few things and he had a pretty safe job operating road repair machines so the front lines could be resupplied. My mother joined the Airforce to help the war effort while waiting for her fiancée to return. Glad he did, lol

It appears that most just wanted to put it behind them and move forward.
 
There's that near-to-last scene in 12 O'Clock High where the CO is about to board his aircraft and finds he just can't. Body won't do it. He's had enough, and systems outside of his control are now demanding an end to what he's going through.

...

It's a terrible thing to put someone, anyone through that kind of perpetual stress. It can devour even a strong man, body and soul.

Some guys handled it well. Leonard Cheshire was an ice-blooded goddamn hero. Guy Gibson knew his sh!t and flew as often as he could until he made one mistake and died in a Mosquito. Robert Clothier (middle back row in the following photo) flew 56 ops across two tours with 408 Squdron, came home, was the sole survivor of a B25 crash off the end of the runway at Boundary Bay, was paralyzed from the waist down for two years, and then played Relic on The Beachcombers for 27 seasons.

More than a few great actors of that generation were cut from the same cloth. They just had an ability to persevere that boggles the mind.

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"Dirty Dozen" will always be one of my all time favourite films. Marvin playing the hard nosed commander was spot on. Oddly enough, he never made it past Lance Corporal, but kept losing the extra pay for off hours shenanigans.

21 combat landings in the Pacific Island hop. Sure, many were uncontested, but when the boats hit the beach, they never knew for sure. Marvin finished the war in hospital for a year after getting machine gunned on Saipan.

Made enough money in Hollywood to get buried anywhere he wanted, but he took the ground he earned, with a simple stone slab above him in Arlington. Says a lot about what really mattered to him.
 
There's that near-to-last scene in 12 O'Clock High where the CO is about to board his aircraft and finds he just can't. Body won't do it. He's had enough, and systems outside of his control are now demanding an end to what he's going through.

I'm willing to bet there are more than a few that view/participate on this board with similar experience on the ground, in the air and on the sea.

Everyone that goes into combat is different. There are those born into it through their societal beliefs and then there is everything inbetween right to the socially engineered by their governments/religions etc and again, some come to grips with it one way or another and live on the fringes of their chosen societies. Some just can't bring themselves to do it and it doesn't show up, until it's to late.

Lack of sleep, overwork, overstressed, treated like a Leper will do that to a person.
 
Dark Alley Dan;[URL="tel:19440351" said:
19440351[/URL]]There's that near-to-last scene in 12 O'Clock High where the CO is about to board his aircraft and finds he just can't. Body won't do it. He's had enough, and systems outside of his control are now demanding an end to what he's going through.

Were he RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF or other Commonwealth flier, he'd run the risk of being labelled "Low Moral Fiber". LMF meant transfer out of the unit and the remainder of the war spent performing the lowest ground duties - kitchen prep, sweeping floors, swabbing out the bog. Damned unkind, and indicative of a very weak appreciation for certain psychological realities.

This from a paper on that policy:



There's a lot in there about "stiff upper lip" and class and "dying like a man" and all that other bullsh!t. Truth is, we all have limits. We all manage stress differently and some can take more than others. If your job forces you to find peace in the idea you're already dead and so needn't worry about dying anymore, how in the hell does a person come back from something like that? What's civilian life look like for someone who's "known" he's dead for three years and yet still walks around, eats, sh!ts, sleeps, breathes...

This might help explain why some of our grandfathers preferred not to speak of those times. Hard to look back on the memories of the Ops you flew when you were a dead man in a Halifax over occupied Europe, then look your precious grandchild in the face. Too much of a switch in mindset to handle gracefully. How much of that burden do you want to drop on this kid you love?

Some guys handled it well. Leonard Cheshire was an ice-blooded goddamn hero. Guy Gibson knew his sh!t and flew as often as he could until he made one mistake and died in a Mosquito. Robert Clothier (middle back row in the following photo) flew 56 ops across two tours with 408 Squdron, came home, was the sole survivor of a B25 crash off the end of the runway at Boundary Bay, was paralyzed from the waist down for two years, and then played Relic on The Beachcombers for 27 seasons.

Relic20.jpeg


Other aircrew lasted three trips and flat out could not do it even one more time. Were they cowards? Maybe some were. But I can't judge these men. I'm not qualified and I daresay neither are you. I've never been placed in a position where I had to suit up and go sit in a cold dark aluminum tube high above thousands of capable people all of whom wished me dead and had the equipment to make that happen. Not even once. Imagine doing that thirty times. Imagine losing friends almost every op. It happened to him. Why wouldn't it happen to me. Why not me?

How soon? Tonight?

This is the sort of thing I remember every November 11th.

Slight correction: the phrase is/was “lack of moral fibre” - mother was a WAAF at Biggin Hill
 
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All of the wars seem to want to describe their taxation on common man with a different connotation' Civil war was just plain cowardice, first war was "shell shock" or "trench foot" , second was the aforementioned "lack of moral fiber", Korean war was "Froze up" , Viet Nam was "1000 yard stare" and now modern warfare has PTSD....all just different expressions of someone reaching the end of their rope.
 
All of the wars seem to want to describe their taxation on common man with a different connotation' Civil war was just plain cowardice, first war was "shell shock" or "trench foot" , second was the aforementioned "lack of moral fiber", Korean war was "Froze up" , Viet Nam was "1000 yard stare" and now modern warfare has PTSD....all just different expressions of someone reaching the end of their rope.

In the early 2000's, I spent a couple years working as a care worker/supervisor in the shelter system. Lots of vets in the system. Old timers from the Vietnam era who came to Canada after their service to get away from the politics and stigma of that war, Gulf War vets, Asians and Africans and South/Central Americans from the various dirty wars in those countries from the 80's and 90's. Canadian vets who saw things no one should have to witness on peacekeeping missions. I imagine by now a fair number from the GWOT wars are filling up bunks and pads on the floor. Guys who'd hit the end of their rope in the service of their country or some cause, but just didn't realize it until after the shooting stopped and their countries and causes no longer had use of them and cast them aside to find their own way. Some just can't find their own way in the "normal" world after that. Still chaps my @ss to this day how they get cast aside. There's no magic wand or easy fixes, I don't know any solutions, but we should be trying harder than we are.

The next wave will be coming from both sides of the Russia/Ukraine war.

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well my wife's family, one of her grandfathers was Royal Navy in the Pacific on a UK carrier at the tail end of the war, he had a few stories

the other grandfather I never met, but the family had his medals, claimed that he was a cook in the Royal Artillery... I now have the medals they were still in the envelopes and never mounted, and there is no way he was a cook, but I don't think the family really wants to know, and he certainly didn't want them to know.
 
All of the wars seem to want to describe their taxation on common man with a different connotation' Civil war was just plain cowardice, first war was "shell shock" or "trench foot" , second was the aforementioned "lack of moral fiber", Korean war was "Froze up" , Viet Nam was "1000 yard stare" and now modern warfare has PTSD....all just different expressions of someone reaching the end of their rope.
Yes ... but you can see trench foot which is why regular 'foot inspections' are beaten into every junior officers head:

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=tr...content/postgradmedj/95/1127/507/F1.large.jpg


But you cant see PTSD. One of the reasons why the second 'Principle of War' is 'Maintenance of Morale'.

Maintenance of morale is also why junior officers and sr nco's MUST be in excellent physical condition if you are employed in the combat arms. A person who is barely able to keep up physically simply cannot be effective in maintaining morale and leading troops.
 
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