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- Thread starter jwhc
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Yes, Market Garden.
Market Garden wasn't just a military disaster, it was a disaster for Holland. The Dutch had an "easy" war, for the most part. The occupation wasn't overly onerous. Not trying to minimize the problems that the Germans created during occupation, but a lot of other countries had it far worse.
When the Dutch came out in support of the Allies during Market Garden, it was noticed by the Germans, who's response was "Oh, so it's like that, is it?" Aside from the considerable damage to cities like Arnhem and Eindhoven etc., and civilian casualties during the fighting, there was a considerable amount of reprisals by the Germans after the failure of Market Garden and the Allies were forced to withdraw. Conditions became much, much harsher for the Dutch afterward.
They very much blame Monty for it. Monty deserves every bit of their scorn. Market Garden was folly driven by ego.
like I said -- I have no particular admiration for Montgomery but the sentence above I highlighted is utter BS!!!
read this time line of events: http://www.godutch.com/newspaper/index.php?id=295 ... you will see that well before Market Garden the Dutch were making it known to the Germans that they weren't "their pals" ...read the entries for July 21, 1944 (roundup of civilians) through to Aug 28 .. all before Market Garden - rest assured that the Germans knew exactly "..it's like that, is it?" well before the Market Garden debacle. Your interpretation implies that the Dutch were sitting on their thumbs being all 'nicey, nicey'.... I dont think so! And furthermore I think it is insulting to the Dutch many of whom were resisting the Germans and saving allied personnel from capture...and at great risk to themselves because the Germans were well aware of these activities and were trying to stop them very actively..with significant force!
As for Market Garden itself .. the Dutch underground (and Prince Bernhard himself) had repeatedly reported that the German resistance was faltering and that the Allies should exploit this rapidly...Montgomery had dithered and dallied a little because he had over extended his supply lines but also because Eisenhower resisted Montgomery's intentions - Ike wanted to advance US forces to the south rather than continue to push in the north. When Montgomery finally got approval for Market Garden ... Eisenhower's comment was that it was a plan to get "across the Rhine on the cheap"... as for the actual execution of Market Garden ... well a great deal has been written by experts and non-experts .... but the two conclusions I have drawn were that "Boy" Browning was a colossal FUBAR and that MGen Stanisław Sosabowski was made the scapegoat in what can only be described as one of the greatest injustices of WWll .... reflecting on the leadership incompetence of Montgomery and his command.
The fact remains however is that if Market Garden had worked .. it would have shortened the war in the lowlands and accelerated the eventual surrender.
(edit to add .. I would have thought if the older Dutch dislike Monty ... it might have more to do with his well documented predilection for young boys and suspicions of pedophilia.... perhaps that explains why one of his great favorites was "Boy" Browning who also had the classic Public School upbringing which seems to be associated with unusual ###ual proclivities ... "Boy" Browning married Daphne Du Maurier the author who was involved in a lesbian affair with Gertrude Lawrence... interesting creatures .. all of them.)
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I've heard all the stories. I married into a Dutch family.
Dutch resistance was largely passive throughout the war - hiding people from the Germans, smuggling, etc. The dirty little secret the Dutch like to cover up, is that there was as much collusion with the Germans as there was resistance. Dutch resistance cels turned over to the Germans by fellow Dutch, Dutch businesses willing and happy to do business with the Wehrmacht.
That the info the Dutch Underground gave to the allies was so completely out of line with the ground truth is an indication of just how weak the resistance movement was.
In "A Bridge Too Far" by Cornelius Ryan, I believe he mentions some actions taken against the Dutch who assisted the Allied paratroopers with info on troop movements, bridges and escape routes.
"Market Garden" was a fubar by any standards. Airborne operations on a massive scale were highly risky, their success dependent on ideal conditions and cohesive units surviving the initial drop. Scattered forces of lightly armed paratroops don't put up much of a fight against heavily armed and armoured infantry.
After Crete (Graveyard of the German Airborne), Hitler gave up on large scale airborne operations, despite their early successes. The Mussolini rescue by Otto Skorzeni's glider troops was one of the last.
"Market Garden" was a fubar by any standards. Airborne operations on a massive scale were highly risky, their success dependent on ideal conditions and cohesive units surviving the initial drop. Scattered forces of lightly armed paratroops don't put up much of a fight against heavily armed and armoured infantry.
After Crete (Graveyard of the German Airborne), Hitler gave up on large scale airborne operations, despite their early successes. The Mussolini rescue by Otto Skorzeni's glider troops was one of the last.
Dark Alley Dan
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Speaking of which - Fat Benny gets a ride:
Here's the story from the Hard Workin' Propagandists at Die Deutsche Wochenschau:
[youtube]67Q5c2DBs8I[/youtube]
"Bye, Duce. Have fun in exile..."
And hey, world travelers - you can stay at the Campo Imperatore!
She's no architectural masterpiece, but the skiing's good and the history is sure there. And if you can't pay the bill, they keep you there until Germans bust you out.
Here's the story from the Hard Workin' Propagandists at Die Deutsche Wochenschau:
[youtube]67Q5c2DBs8I[/youtube]
"Bye, Duce. Have fun in exile..."
And hey, world travelers - you can stay at the Campo Imperatore!
She's no architectural masterpiece, but the skiing's good and the history is sure there. And if you can't pay the bill, they keep you there until Germans bust you out.
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Otto Skorzeny, Harald Mors, and Benito Mussolini in front of Hotel Campo Imperatore, Gran Sasso, Italy, 12 Sep 1943,
other links keep breaking... not that important anyway....
Although very important to mention that it was Major Harald Mors that planned and executed the raid with his Fallschirmjager... Capt Skorzeny (who was not a Fallschirmjager) and a few of his SS guys were just along for the ride...which didn't stop Skorzeny from claiming undeserved credit .... from all evidence Skorzeny was a bull#### artiste' of the first order! Please note the number of times that publicity hound Skorzeny managed to get into the photos ..... while Major Mors was taking care of the real business of war.
other links keep breaking... not that important anyway....
Although very important to mention that it was Major Harald Mors that planned and executed the raid with his Fallschirmjager... Capt Skorzeny (who was not a Fallschirmjager) and a few of his SS guys were just along for the ride...which didn't stop Skorzeny from claiming undeserved credit .... from all evidence Skorzeny was a bull#### artiste' of the first order! Please note the number of times that publicity hound Skorzeny managed to get into the photos ..... while Major Mors was taking care of the real business of war.
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Dark Alley Dan
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- Darkest Edmonton
Pics aren't showing, mate. At least not for me...
Just watched this about military flamethrowers. Interesting info, and contradicts a lot of things we've come to believe (largely thanks to Hollywood).
Most interesting part: How flamethrowers are lethal. It isn't the flame - you don't burn to death. The image of someone running around on fire is largely a Hollywood creation. What kills is is carbon monoxide intake, and it's fast. Like, a second or two fast.
Also turns out that having them burst into flames upon being shot is largely a myth, as well.
Kudos to Ian at ForgottenWeapons for taking the time to dig up an actual expert on them, and sit down for a 1/2 hour discussion with him. Not much on imagery, but very big on info video:
Most interesting part: How flamethrowers are lethal. It isn't the flame - you don't burn to death. The image of someone running around on fire is largely a Hollywood creation. What kills is is carbon monoxide intake, and it's fast. Like, a second or two fast.
Also turns out that having them burst into flames upon being shot is largely a myth, as well.
Kudos to Ian at ForgottenWeapons for taking the time to dig up an actual expert on them, and sit down for a 1/2 hour discussion with him. Not much on imagery, but very big on info video:
I see my mention or "Col. Oreste Pinto", his book "Spycatcher" and his account of "King Kong" aka Christiaan Lindemans last time this came up made no impression?
The problem wasn't Monty, the problem was the very high level of collaboration in the Netherlands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Lindemans
Donny Fenn1
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So just like the French then? Pretty much criminal organizations turning each other in to gain the upper hand when the liberators come? And then the American thing happens in Iraq /Afghanistan and people are surprised?
