Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
Speaking of war aid to the Soviets, here are some potentially Canadian-made Valentine tanks in Soviet use... 1,420 were produced in Canada of which most were sent to the Soviet-Union, with 2,394 sent from Britain. So about 1/3 of all Soviet Valentines were Canadian.
Entering Lithuanian capital Wilnius in July 1944 with the 3rd Belorussian Front
Entering Roumanian Botoshani in April 1944 with the 6th Tank Army
Vilnius, Lithuania. The building behind the tank now is the presidential residence.
This one is sitting in the CWM in Ottawa:
Valentine Tank Mk VIIA, no. 838 at the Canadian War Museum. Built in Montreal, Canada, and sent to the Soviet Union under Lend Lease. Fell through ice near Telepino, Soviet Ukraine (Telepyne, Ukraine) on 1944-01-25, recovered in 1990, and presented to Canada by Ukraine in 1992.
The Canadian War Museum really grinds my gears !! They have all that open (dead) space that should be used to display vehicles yet keep that free for receptions and wine and cheese parties while the very reason the damned LeBreton gallery even exists (vehicles/fields guns and large equipment) is either jammed in shoulder to shoulder or taken off the floor and put away in storage. I stand by my belief the people running the CWM should do a serious gut check, take a good hard look in the mirror and decide if they are running a "National" level museum (that sadly has a regional/municipal level attitude) or a glorified reception hall.
This is a common trend throughout the museum community, especially museums that display large, hard to move items like military vehicles, aircraft or railway equipment. If the content changes infrequently, visitors rarely make repeat visits. Funding is based primarily on attendance numbers so banquets are a way to boost those figures as well as generate quick, dependable and consistent revenue. Sad, but it is what it is and I doubt this concept will change any time soon.
Brookwood
It would only have made sense to encourage Hitler and the Germans to attack the Soviet Union, but I have no knowledge of any evidence that such actually occurred, and if any evidence existed I expect it has long since been burned. Our Commonwealth situation and efforts, or more precisely some aspects of the British command and military structure, were such a mess in 1941/42 that I would wonder how much we could have done to influence Hitler directly, other than demonstrating our total inability to intervene for the foreseeable future (America was then neutral and looked to stay that way too.). We were hanging on by the skin of our teeth, our only hope was either to come to terms with the Nazis or hope that Hitler would attack Russia and suffer a debacle as Napoleon had done.
We should recall that Stalin had good agents in place in MI5 and MI6 before and particularly during and after WWII. He knew what was going on, if he chose to believe the evidence, and often he did not. Hitler and Stalin had a certain grudging respect for each other as nobodies who had risen to supreme power, that said, the destruction of Bolshevism was the obsession and almost the raison d'etre of the whole Nazi movement, Hitler included. In one of Wing Commander Winterbotham's books he tells how General Reichenau and some of his colleagues laid out for him in the most vehement terms in the mid-1930s their plans for destroying the USSR in a lightening war. Winterbotham who spoke German and was tall, blonde and blue-eyed was used as a point man by British intelligence in the 1930s to liaise with the Nazi leadership and pose as the representative of a group of highly placed British sympathizers. The irony is that, had the highly placed British sympathizers, who did in fact exist, actually come to power, he might have had to work both ways! Winterbotham also wrote "The Ultra Secret" most of us have read, I think?
The Germans were by 1941 full of what the Japanese later ruefully learned to call "Victory Disease"; they failed to accurately determine the extent of Russian reserves, which turned out to be more than twice what they had calculated, and they naturally expected that their poor performance against the Finns represented the inherent quality of Soviet troops.
The Russian troops in WWI often showed extraordinary bravery and fatalism, but they also showed a lack of discipline and the officer corps was soon drained of the best. The result was collapse. The Soviet forces would also have collapsed had Hitler declared and demonstrated the liberation Russia rather than its destruction and colonization.
I would question the statement that the Soviet forces were uneducated. Their equipment was in many ways better than any other in the world, a trend which has continued to this day. They fielded for example, tens of thousands of trained snipers in 1941 and the huge German casualties show how hard the fighting was. Their rigid command structure and tactics did not allow for much creativity and led to innumerable fiascoes.
Unlike in the West, where the best human material was put into the fighting line and often lost, the Soviets combed out their best men and put them into the MVD and other formations where they tended to survive the war. Of course the first criteria for selection was political "reliability", but physical and intellectual qualities were also considered. Their job was to push against the Germans, to destruction if necessary, the B2s, C3s and "unreliables" who were herded into the infantry and driven forward to attack until they won or they were incapable of further effort.
The Stalinist army was the nearest thing to the Mongol Hordes or other barbarians of antiquity: totally ruthless against friend and foe. Obviously that only works in a police state.
RRCo, IMHO much of what you are reputing the book I read with is exactly what the Allies manipulated to happen. You are using the results as repudiation.
Question the education of the average in your face troopie??? A lot of Stalin's troop got their first pair of boots when they went into the armed forces. There were many of them that couldn't read. That doesn't mean they were stupid, just illiterate. That also doesn't mean they weren't capable of learning very quickly how to use relatively high tech equipment that was designed to be operated by the lowest denominators on a reliably consistent basis.
IMHO, the Axis leaders were set up and snookered by the Allies when they went after the Soviets. Very good reason their information on the Soviet capabilities were far off. Good counter intelligence.
When the Axis troops were closing in on Moscow, Stalin was ready to give up. The Allied leaders told him to get real and pull back if necessary. He did just that and had a lot of his factories moved further east and north. The one thing the Axis strategists didn't plan on was the relatively efficiency of the Allied supply convoys. Supposedly 100,000+ trucks reached the Soviets for use. The Americans sent them over 150,000 but they ended up on the bottom of the sea.
Don't even consider for one second I am denigrating the contributions of the Soviet Union or it's people. I am only putting forward the contents of a book I read, which by the way wasn't a conspiracy thriller.
I have been racking what is left of my brain all day trying to remember the name of the book or whom it was written by. I got it out of our school library. I do remember what attracted it to me was that it was in as new condition with a red and black cover depicting a stylized tank/air war scene with caricatures.
Question the education of the average in your face troopie??? A lot of Stalin's troop got their first pair of boots when they went into the armed forces. There were many of them that couldn't read. That doesn't mean they were stupid, just illiterate. That also doesn't mean they weren't capable of learning very quickly how to use relatively high tech equipment that was designed to be operated by the lowest denominators on a reliably consistent basis.
IMHO, the Axis leaders were set up and snookered by the Allies when they went after the Soviets. Very good reason their information on the Soviet capabilities were far off. Good counter intelligence.
When the Axis troops were closing in on Moscow, Stalin was ready to give up. The Allied leaders told him to get real and pull back if necessary. He did just that and had a lot of his factories moved further east and north. The one thing the Axis strategists didn't plan on was the relatively efficiency of the Allied supply convoys. Supposedly 100,000+ trucks reached the Soviets for use. The Americans sent them over 150,000 but they ended up on the bottom of the sea.
Don't even consider for one second I am denigrating the contributions of the Soviet Union or it's people. I am only putting forward the contents of a book I read, which by the way wasn't a conspiracy thriller.
I have been racking what is left of my brain all day trying to remember the name of the book or whom it was written by. I got it out of our school library. I do remember what attracted it to me was that it was in as new condition with a red and black cover depicting a stylized tank/air war scene with caricatures.
- Location
- Vancouver Island
DA! Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!
Hey, this picture gets my vote for "PICTURE OF THE DAY"!
Tanks for sharing!
That last one's a great photo.
And look, they're treating it the same way they treated their T-34s!
No shortage of crewmen, but check that track tension!
BTW-- Any Russian translators in the house? What patriotic slogan have they splashed on there?
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Hey, this picture gets my vote for "PICTURE OF THE DAY"!
Tanks for sharing!
That last one's a great photo.
And look, they're treating it the same way they treated their T-34s!
No shortage of crewmen, but check that track tension!
BTW-- Any Russian translators in the house? What patriotic slogan have they splashed on there?
[/U][/I][/B]
This is an excellent read on the Lend-Lease Shermans...
Still available from Amazon etc but a bit pricey.
Sherman Tank
From “Victory at Falaise “
“ Tony Sargeaunt, from the detailed testing done in England, that Allied armour was highly vulnerable at ranges well in excel of 1,000 yards “
“ The statistics were stunning. Sixty per cent of Allied tank losses were due to a single round from a 75mm or 88mm gun, and two-thirds of all tanks brewed up when hit, German armour-piercing shells almost always penetrated and disabled tank; “
“ Only 38 per cent of hits from Sherman 75mm shells or 6-pounder anti-tank penetrated German armour. “
" One history of the 3rd U.S. Armored Division, titled appropriately Death Traps,
Reports that, during the European campaign , the division which entered combat in Normandy with 232 M4 Sherman, “ had 648 tanks completely destroyed in combat … and 700 tanks knocked out, repaired and put back in action. This was a loss rate of 580 per cent . “ The experience of all Allied armoured units was similar. “
From; The Soldiers’ Story, Victory at Falaise; by Brigadier-General Denis Whitaker, DSO and BAR, CM, ED, LD’H, COC
( Shelagh with Terry Copp )
From “Victory at Falaise “
“ Tony Sargeaunt, from the detailed testing done in England, that Allied armour was highly vulnerable at ranges well in excel of 1,000 yards “
“ The statistics were stunning. Sixty per cent of Allied tank losses were due to a single round from a 75mm or 88mm gun, and two-thirds of all tanks brewed up when hit, German armour-piercing shells almost always penetrated and disabled tank; “
“ Only 38 per cent of hits from Sherman 75mm shells or 6-pounder anti-tank penetrated German armour. “
" One history of the 3rd U.S. Armored Division, titled appropriately Death Traps,
Reports that, during the European campaign , the division which entered combat in Normandy with 232 M4 Sherman, “ had 648 tanks completely destroyed in combat … and 700 tanks knocked out, repaired and put back in action. This was a loss rate of 580 per cent . “ The experience of all Allied armoured units was similar. “
From; The Soldiers’ Story, Victory at Falaise; by Brigadier-General Denis Whitaker, DSO and BAR, CM, ED, LD’H, COC
( Shelagh with Terry Copp )
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Always wanted an HSc.
Elegant device, that. But then I heard they nibble at the webbing of your thumb and lost interest.
Elegant device, that. But then I heard they nibble at the webbing of your thumb and lost interest.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
"Don't worry, men. There's lots more where you came from."
One has to wonder how bad morale must have gotten. When you're pretty sure you're going to lose your vehicle, and there's a good chance you'll be in it when it's hit, I have to think the pucker factor would be pretty high all the time. Guys can't function at that level of stress indefinitely.
Has anyone done a study on tank crew "exhaustion" in France in 1944?
^^^Can't say that this is a broad study, but my maternal Grandfather landed at Normandy June 9 and fought through to the end of the European war. He was a Sherman Firefly tank driver. He did say that at the end of the war he was pretty damned exhausted and only looked for a place to sleep. Food was a distant second!
Grandpa Glen said that his tank was hit twice, but the shells never penetrated - although there was "one helluva GONG when the shells hit!". I'm assuming the shells were from a smaller-calibre gun (or a bigger antitank gun from very long range) because if his tank was hit by a 75mm or 88mm I probably wouldn't be here typing this!
Grandpa Glen said that his tank was hit twice, but the shells never penetrated - although there was "one helluva GONG when the shells hit!". I'm assuming the shells were from a smaller-calibre gun (or a bigger antitank gun from very long range) because if his tank was hit by a 75mm or 88mm I probably wouldn't be here typing this!
- Location
- Algoma, ON
It's kind of amazing how quickly a sherman could be turned into scrap metal.
One of the coaches at our boxing club spoke of dealing with German Armor; he commanded a squad of Sherman's in the European theatre.
" If there was a Tiger in the village ahead, you didn't go after him. You got on the radio and called in the Typhie's ( Hawker Typhoons ) to take it out.
Two or three pages back it was argued about how the West couldn't take the losses that the Soviets did. Yet our boys went into battle with the Sherman against superior German armour and managed to get it done.
Perhaps we do have some resolve after all?
" If there was a Tiger in the village ahead, you didn't go after him. You got on the radio and called in the Typhie's ( Hawker Typhoons ) to take it out.
Two or three pages back it was argued about how the West couldn't take the losses that the Soviets did. Yet our boys went into battle with the Sherman against superior German armour and managed to get it done.
Perhaps we do have some resolve after all?
Kampfhamster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Switzerland
Just finished reading Steven Zaloga's "Armored Thunderbolt" about the development and use of the Sherman.
He goes into detail how and why the Sherman was used in WWII.
Looks like the Sherman wasn't that bad after all. While the german tanks were better armored and armed, the Sherman was way more reliable.
He goes into detail how and why the Sherman was used in WWII.
Looks like the Sherman wasn't that bad after all. While the german tanks were better armored and armed, the Sherman was way more reliable.
Regarding Sherman reliability, here is a great conspiracy theory:
"Winnipeg’s largest automobile dealers tested the Pogue carburetor and got results of up to 216.8 mpg! In 1945, according to an unnamed source, carburetors marked “POGUE CARBURETOR, DO NOT OPEN” were used on American Army tanks throughout WWII but were removed from circulation after the war ended.
Note: That legend is mentioned in Rommel’s autobiography and there is some evidence of engineers witnessing the carburettors covered with sealed boxes so nobody knew what they were."
"Winnipeg’s largest automobile dealers tested the Pogue carburetor and got results of up to 216.8 mpg! In 1945, according to an unnamed source, carburetors marked “POGUE CARBURETOR, DO NOT OPEN” were used on American Army tanks throughout WWII but were removed from circulation after the war ended.
Note: That legend is mentioned in Rommel’s autobiography and there is some evidence of engineers witnessing the carburettors covered with sealed boxes so nobody knew what they were."
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An interesting photo of the KO'D Sherman Firefly being examined by a US paratrooper. Its quite likely in Holland where the US Airborne and Brit armoured units were mixed up together in Operation Market Garden.
Fixed it for you.
