Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
planes are milsurp
I personally like aircraft pictures and I agree that they fit in with the military surplus theme of this forum. Different topics will run in trends; sometimes rifles, then pistols, tanks, airplanes etc. The variety keeps things interesting.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Darkest Edmonton
If you take a minute and read the very first post in the thread, you'll understand it more clearly. Why the snarky comment?? Do u own any photos?
The Spit pic (very nice, BTW) is a good palate cleanser after a reference to the Fairey Gannet, quite possibly the most unpleasant concoction of lumps, right angles and apparently random tumors to ever actually fly.
That start cart next to it is far more aerodynamic.
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
I'd agree, Diopter. I've been interested in warfare since I was a kid. No familial reason for it. I continue to read up on it because it's interesting to me to see how people react when faced with about the worst things humans can do to each other. The humans make it worth reading about. The tools are incidental.
I recently finished Max Hasting's book on Bomber Command and came away with a better understanding of the bomber war against Germany. Chapter 13 deals with the resident's experience of the destruction of Darmstadt by the RAF. It's good for us to appreciate both sides of any issue, and eyewitness accounts of what it's like to be the recipient of Harris' "affections" are valuable. If one can read that and still feel that bombing towns flat in late '44 was militarily useful, they might be entirely immune to human sensitivity. Or reason.
The morality of area bombing of civilian targets continues to be contentious. Folks seem to take it as a condemnation of the aircrews, which it is emphatically not. Those boys did the job they were told to do. But I think history has some pretty pointed and entirely valid questions for Harris.
I recently finished Max Hasting's book on Bomber Command and came away with a better understanding of the bomber war against Germany. Chapter 13 deals with the resident's experience of the destruction of Darmstadt by the RAF. It's good for us to appreciate both sides of any issue, and eyewitness accounts of what it's like to be the recipient of Harris' "affections" are valuable. If one can read that and still feel that bombing towns flat in late '44 was militarily useful, they might be entirely immune to human sensitivity. Or reason.
The morality of area bombing of civilian targets continues to be contentious. Folks seem to take it as a condemnation of the aircrews, which it is emphatically not. Those boys did the job they were told to do. But I think history has some pretty pointed and entirely valid questions for Harris.
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I hear you DAD.
Prior to reading, THE END: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, by Ian Kershaw, I had no sympathy for what befell the average German citizen towards the end of the war. After taking the time to read and understand the extent to which the National Socialist Party terrorized their very own people, I definitely have come to empathize with the situation they were in.
If being critical of your government in any fashion, no matter how subtle, potentially saw you and your family summarily shot dead ....I can understand why there wasn't a whole lot of resistance from the German public to the path of self destruction they were being led down.
Prior to reading, THE END: The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler's Germany, by Ian Kershaw, I had no sympathy for what befell the average German citizen towards the end of the war. After taking the time to read and understand the extent to which the National Socialist Party terrorized their very own people, I definitely have come to empathize with the situation they were in.
If being critical of your government in any fashion, no matter how subtle, potentially saw you and your family summarily shot dead ....I can understand why there wasn't a whole lot of resistance from the German public to the path of self destruction they were being led down.
The German nation as a whole deserved what it got for the havoc it caused to Europe, the Soviet Union and the lives of hundreds of millions. When things were going good, everyone was happy to raise their arms in a "Sieg Heil!" salute. In the meantime, the long train rides to extermination camps went on and nobody knew anything about it ......
My German inlaws said it was in your best interest NOT to know, which is a way of saying they were complicit but were sh!t scared to say word one about it. The nation as a whole shares the blame and the shame.
As for the inhumanity of saturation bombing of civilian targets, it was intended to demoralize the populace, thereby killing support for the war. It also undermined the morale of the fighting forces when they saw the destruction of their homes and cities.
Was it crummy - yes, but war itself is hell on earth.
My German inlaws said it was in your best interest NOT to know, which is a way of saying they were complicit but were sh!t scared to say word one about it. The nation as a whole shares the blame and the shame.
As for the inhumanity of saturation bombing of civilian targets, it was intended to demoralize the populace, thereby killing support for the war. It also undermined the morale of the fighting forces when they saw the destruction of their homes and cities.
Was it crummy - yes, but war itself is hell on earth.
Dark Ally. I agree with your points.
Sadly when discussing acts of war, one must realize we are dealing with the relative insanities of war. Butchering each other is a pretty nutty way of settling our differences but alas it has always been thus. I don't have an answer.
As to the comment that Germans got what they deserved, Hard to ram a three year old child into that statement.
Sadly when discussing acts of war, one must realize we are dealing with the relative insanities of war. Butchering each other is a pretty nutty way of settling our differences but alas it has always been thus. I don't have an answer.
As to the comment that Germans got what they deserved, Hard to ram a three year old child into that statement.
I grew up on my Dad's WW2 books, still have them, but a novel worth mentioning on this subject is Len Deighton's "Bomber". While fictional, it's clear Deighton did his research, and really cared about the story.
Which is an account of a raid on a small town in Germany, misidentified as the target. It gives you both sides: what it was like in the air, and what it was like on the ground.
fat tony
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I attended a lecture by Phillip Riteman - he took a question from a young coloured man who asked him: "why didn't you rise up against the Axis military forces?" To which Mr. Riteman replied: "what would have been the point of it?" If you take a look at the scale, a few hundred or even thousand Axis prisoners rising up in a rebellion would have been quickly and brutally suppressed with tenfold reprisals against innocents. Not everyone got to be a resistance fighter.
Many of us have seen the footage of the prisoners formerly Army group Centre being paraded through Moscow streets. A sea of soldiers, just to get an idea of the scale of things.
Wow, political prisoners of the Third Reich as circumlocutory enablers. Whatever works for you. Sounds like a line of thinking which is vulnerable to the usual weaknesses not to mention subjectivity.
https://3.bp.########.com/-aHlFtGxInwU/V_hjAOENOuI/AAAAAAAALXs/xDyHd49FThAykCjmayDXBA1ovdg32IE_wCLcB/s1600/german_prisoners_parade_moscow_3.jpg
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Openly opposing the rule of the NAZI party in Germany during the war was an excellent way to die for a cause, but one could not expect any more than that. There was no avenue for open discussion or debate. You were with the leadership or you were not, and those who were not were sought out, tried, and imprisoned or shot.
While one might die with a clean conscience, self preservation is a powerful motivator. Not everyone is willing to give up everything, including the lives of their family members, to stand up to oppression. if we here were being truthful, I imagine most of us, if not 99+%, would put on a uniform when told and turn a blind eye to all sorts of government horrors if it meant saving the lives of our spouses, children, or parents.
My wife's uncle was drafted into the Volkssturm in the spring of '45, given a rifle, and driven to western Germany to fight the Americans. At the time he signed up, he made the case for being excluded - he was old, very out of shape, not at all well, wife, kids... he was told he'd sign up or they'd lynch him from a lightpost. They meant it. They'd lynched his neighbour. So he signed up. Once left alone, he "lost" his rifle at the earliest moment he could and walked several hundred miles home. Caught pneumonia en route and died a week after getting back.
Did he deserve that? Was he implicated in the brutalities committed by his government? I don't believe he was. How about his wife, one of the sweetest old women I've ever known, who died a widow 60 years on? Don't think she would have had it coming had someone dropped a great nasty bomb on her house.
I think it's important to separate "government" from "people". We've always been taught that a democracy is "of the people", and of all the systems available to us, I guess it's the closest there is. But there are a lot of options out there - fascism, communism, various flavours of totalitarianism - that actively separate the will of the people from the actions of the government. Nazism did, as did Stalinism. The people on the street had very little input in how things got done, or to whom they were done. The government was like a mean dog off a leash. No one's tending the monster, and so bad things happen.
The great sin of the German people was allowing the dog to get big enough to be a threat to the neighbourhood. Should have drowned it as a puppy. But once it grew up and snapped the chain, they couldn't control it or affect it any more than anyone else. I think it's unfair to expect that they could have any sort of effective role to play in bringing it down.
While one might die with a clean conscience, self preservation is a powerful motivator. Not everyone is willing to give up everything, including the lives of their family members, to stand up to oppression. if we here were being truthful, I imagine most of us, if not 99+%, would put on a uniform when told and turn a blind eye to all sorts of government horrors if it meant saving the lives of our spouses, children, or parents.
My wife's uncle was drafted into the Volkssturm in the spring of '45, given a rifle, and driven to western Germany to fight the Americans. At the time he signed up, he made the case for being excluded - he was old, very out of shape, not at all well, wife, kids... he was told he'd sign up or they'd lynch him from a lightpost. They meant it. They'd lynched his neighbour. So he signed up. Once left alone, he "lost" his rifle at the earliest moment he could and walked several hundred miles home. Caught pneumonia en route and died a week after getting back.
Did he deserve that? Was he implicated in the brutalities committed by his government? I don't believe he was. How about his wife, one of the sweetest old women I've ever known, who died a widow 60 years on? Don't think she would have had it coming had someone dropped a great nasty bomb on her house.
I think it's important to separate "government" from "people". We've always been taught that a democracy is "of the people", and of all the systems available to us, I guess it's the closest there is. But there are a lot of options out there - fascism, communism, various flavours of totalitarianism - that actively separate the will of the people from the actions of the government. Nazism did, as did Stalinism. The people on the street had very little input in how things got done, or to whom they were done. The government was like a mean dog off a leash. No one's tending the monster, and so bad things happen.
The great sin of the German people was allowing the dog to get big enough to be a threat to the neighbourhood. Should have drowned it as a puppy. But once it grew up and snapped the chain, they couldn't control it or affect it any more than anyone else. I think it's unfair to expect that they could have any sort of effective role to play in bringing it down.
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
I listened to that one as a book on tape. Bits of it stick with me. A bomber loses a wing to flak, and as the pilot spirals to earth, he keys the mike and offers "Bad show, lads, sorry about that...".
Anyone who claims that Bomber Command played a huge role in winning the war might be well served by reading Hastings' book. He does a good clear analysis of what Harris claimed he was doing vs. what was actually done.
Are you referring to a three year old Jewish child or an 'Aryan' German?
After the near obliteration of the Jewish population of Germany and the Nazi occupied countries, the saturation bombing of German cities would seem to be just by comparison.
NOTHING in modern history is on the same scale as the Holocaust, state sanctioned genocide on an industrial scale.
What was done by the Nazis was done legally in the name of the German people who brought Hitler to power when allas vas bier, brot und bratwurst. That's why I said they share the blame and the shame.
The Chinese, Koreans, Philippinos and people who had the privilege of being POWs (military and civilian) of the Japanese Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere didn't shed many tears when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, Tokyo and other cities firebombed. Doing so saved many hundreds of thousands of lives had the war gone on for a few more years.
After the near obliteration of the Jewish population of Germany and the Nazi occupied countries, the saturation bombing of German cities would seem to be just by comparison.
NOTHING in modern history is on the same scale as the Holocaust, state sanctioned genocide on an industrial scale.
What was done by the Nazis was done legally in the name of the German people who brought Hitler to power when allas vas bier, brot und bratwurst. That's why I said they share the blame and the shame.
The Chinese, Koreans, Philippinos and people who had the privilege of being POWs (military and civilian) of the Japanese Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere didn't shed many tears when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, Tokyo and other cities firebombed. Doing so saved many hundreds of thousands of lives had the war gone on for a few more years.
Donny Fenn1
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"NOTHING in modern history is on the same scale as the Holocaust, state sanctioned genocide on an industrial scale."
Agree completely, the only thing is "we" don't know and probably never will how many Stalin and Mao killed as they didn't lose the war.
Because this is a photo thread arguably the best piston engine fighter of the war:
Agree completely, the only thing is "we" don't know and probably never will how many Stalin and Mao killed as they didn't lose the war.
Because this is a photo thread arguably the best piston engine fighter of the war:
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Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
