Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
- Start date
I think that the conspiracy theorists can't resist building a case for the demise of many great figures - Lawrence, Patton, JFK, etc., etc.
I've read "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" (both versions), "Hero" (recently released) and every other book on the man and the war in the desert I've run across. "Aurans" was truly a living legend and it's a pity that the Allies mucked up his vision for a post-war Middle east with the Sykes-Picot Agreement. That set the stage for the unrest and perpetual civil wars that go on to this day.
The man's vision, talents and abilities were remarkable, vastly superior to the Officer Corps mentality where he was a square peg in a round hole. Amazing how the Brits pull these guys out of the hat in times of great national stress.
I've read "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom" (both versions), "Hero" (recently released) and every other book on the man and the war in the desert I've run across. "Aurans" was truly a living legend and it's a pity that the Allies mucked up his vision for a post-war Middle east with the Sykes-Picot Agreement. That set the stage for the unrest and perpetual civil wars that go on to this day.
The man's vision, talents and abilities were remarkable, vastly superior to the Officer Corps mentality where he was a square peg in a round hole. Amazing how the Brits pull these guys out of the hat in times of great national stress.
The man's vision said:The Brits had another unconventional officer come to the fore in WW2 in the person of Orde Wingate. Wingate went from Captain to Major-General and had notable successes with unconventional tactics and out-of-the-box thinking in the Middle East, East Africa and Burma. Like Lawrence, Wingate was highly eccentric, a social pariah, and a real PITA to deal with. But he got results and results matter in war.
Wingate was thought to hover on the verge of insanity. Although Churchill admired him, he pronounced him too mad for higher command.
Officers who do well in a peacetime military institution sometimes fail miserably in war, and vise versa. I once knew a guy who was a real star in the field, but a real disaster in garrison. His PERs were made up in 2 columns reading "field" and "base". He would be rated as tops in one category in the "field" column, but would be on the bottom in the same category on the "base" side.
I was fortunate to have attended the US Army Command and Staff College during the massive post-Vietnam reforms of the US Army. People are sometimes surprised when I tell them that the book, "Victims of Groupthink" was required reading and a topic for discussion. Groupthinking was what got military and civilian leadership at all levels in trouble in Vietnam.
Unfortunately the "hive mentality", shallow thinking and the pursuit of cookie cutter solutions are alive and well in society and government today, and I think that social media and the Internet are its' biggest boosters.
As a kid, I read every one of my Dad's books on WW2 and aircraft in general, and I thought I knew my stuff. I mean, I knew exactly what the He111z was, even at age 12 or so.
But you guys in this thread keep surprising me over and over.
Thanks!
But you guys in this thread keep surprising me over and over.
Thanks!
To: DONOR
quote: "Above mentioned L-E.To me it looks like a presentation rifle rather than actual battle rifle."
It was one of the rifles that Johnny Turk obtained when Townshend's army capitulated at Kut-al-Amara and originally was engraved simply as an Official War Trophy.
The Turks were having problems with "the natives becoming restless" and it was well-known that the Emir of Mecca was one of the most disaffected at that time. It was decided to have a small number of rifles embellished and sent to various Arab leaders as evidence that Turkey was their faithful and loyal friend and all of that..... and what better to send that a captured rifle which already had the "we are tougher" capture message already engraved upon them? So the rifle was embellished rather nicely: lots of decoration and then that pretty gold damascened inlay. The fact that it was going to a man who was, in effect, a King was not lost on the Turks, NOR was the fact that if the rifle were no good, no matter how pretty it looked, it would have been thrown away. So it was a GOOD combat rifle, CAPTURED and so engraved..... and THEN embellished "fit for a King".
After receiving the pretty English rifle -- with its various messages engraved upon it -- the Emir decided to enter the War in support of the British rather than of the Turks -- and sent the rifle to his son the Sherif out in the field, a son who would USE the rifle. Sherif Ali then carried the rifle until he gave it to his English archaeologist friend who just happened to be bringing him thousands MORE of the slick English rifles..... and bags of ammunition.
Lawrence carried the rifle until the end of the war and brought it back to England when he flew home after the fighting ended..... and eventually gave it to his new friend, who just happened to be the man for whom the rifle was MADE originally: our King George V...... who gave it to the IWM on the day of Lawrence's funeral. The entire line of provenance is clear and documented. It WAS a battle rifle, BECAME a trophy, then BECAME a battle rifle again and then finally became a museum-piece.
Thanks for the excellent photos! When I was at the IWM in '76 the lighting was poor and the rifle had not been cleaned for some time: there was DUST on the rear sight. I wanted to take it home and play with it, take it to the range and so forth but those museum-folks just have NO sense of ha-ha..... so I had to settle for looking at it through a glass case, in poor light..... and without a polarising filter in my bag. Oh well, I DID manage to get my hands inside Maxim's very FIRST automatic machine-gun...... and I saw an armoured Maxim from the Zepp which both my Grandparents watched being shot down..... so the visit was anything but a flop.
It is interesting that "our side" did exactly the same thing with captured weapons. Many years ago I saw a Gewehr 98 which was wearing a brass plaque announcing that it had been captured at Regina Trench.... and the date. I knew nothing about Regina Trench at that time and it was only many years later that I met and came to know the man actually RESPONSIBLE for that rifle's capture. By that time, of course, the rifle was long gone.
And a question: can anybody here TRANSLATE the inscriptions on Lawrence's rifle? A good, solid translation would be very good to have.
quote: "Above mentioned L-E.To me it looks like a presentation rifle rather than actual battle rifle."
It was one of the rifles that Johnny Turk obtained when Townshend's army capitulated at Kut-al-Amara and originally was engraved simply as an Official War Trophy.
The Turks were having problems with "the natives becoming restless" and it was well-known that the Emir of Mecca was one of the most disaffected at that time. It was decided to have a small number of rifles embellished and sent to various Arab leaders as evidence that Turkey was their faithful and loyal friend and all of that..... and what better to send that a captured rifle which already had the "we are tougher" capture message already engraved upon them? So the rifle was embellished rather nicely: lots of decoration and then that pretty gold damascened inlay. The fact that it was going to a man who was, in effect, a King was not lost on the Turks, NOR was the fact that if the rifle were no good, no matter how pretty it looked, it would have been thrown away. So it was a GOOD combat rifle, CAPTURED and so engraved..... and THEN embellished "fit for a King".
After receiving the pretty English rifle -- with its various messages engraved upon it -- the Emir decided to enter the War in support of the British rather than of the Turks -- and sent the rifle to his son the Sherif out in the field, a son who would USE the rifle. Sherif Ali then carried the rifle until he gave it to his English archaeologist friend who just happened to be bringing him thousands MORE of the slick English rifles..... and bags of ammunition.
Lawrence carried the rifle until the end of the war and brought it back to England when he flew home after the fighting ended..... and eventually gave it to his new friend, who just happened to be the man for whom the rifle was MADE originally: our King George V...... who gave it to the IWM on the day of Lawrence's funeral. The entire line of provenance is clear and documented. It WAS a battle rifle, BECAME a trophy, then BECAME a battle rifle again and then finally became a museum-piece.
Thanks for the excellent photos! When I was at the IWM in '76 the lighting was poor and the rifle had not been cleaned for some time: there was DUST on the rear sight. I wanted to take it home and play with it, take it to the range and so forth but those museum-folks just have NO sense of ha-ha..... so I had to settle for looking at it through a glass case, in poor light..... and without a polarising filter in my bag. Oh well, I DID manage to get my hands inside Maxim's very FIRST automatic machine-gun...... and I saw an armoured Maxim from the Zepp which both my Grandparents watched being shot down..... so the visit was anything but a flop.
It is interesting that "our side" did exactly the same thing with captured weapons. Many years ago I saw a Gewehr 98 which was wearing a brass plaque announcing that it had been captured at Regina Trench.... and the date. I knew nothing about Regina Trench at that time and it was only many years later that I met and came to know the man actually RESPONSIBLE for that rifle's capture. By that time, of course, the rifle was long gone.
And a question: can anybody here TRANSLATE the inscriptions on Lawrence's rifle? A good, solid translation would be very good to have.
The Brits had another unconventional officer come to the fore in WW2 in the person of Orde Wingate. Wingate went from Captain to Major-General and had notable successes with unconventional tactics and out-of-the-box thinking in the Middle East, East Africa and Burma. Like Lawrence, Wingate was highly eccentric, a social pariah, and a real PITA to deal with. But he got results and results matter in war.
Wingate was thought to hover on the verge of insanity. Although Churchill admired him, he pronounced him too mad for higher command.
Officers who do well in a peacetime military institution sometimes fail miserably in war, and vise versa. I once knew a guy who was a real star in the field, but a real disaster in garrison. His PERs were made up in 2 columns reading "field" and "base". He would be rated as tops in one category in the "field" column, but would be on the bottom in the same category on the "base" side.
I was fortunate to have attended the US Army Command and Staff College during the massive post-Vietnam reforms of the US Army. People are sometimes surprised when I tell them that the book, "Victims of Groupthink" was required reading and a topic for discussion. Groupthinking was what got military and civilian leadership at all levels in trouble in Vietnam.
Unfortunately the "hive mentality", shallow thinking and the pursuit of cookie cutter solutions are alive and well in society and government today, and I think that social media and the Internet are its' biggest boosters.
You mean like present day Liberals/NDP?????????
https://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/69430/t-e-lawrences-rifle
Some better pictures at the above website.
Some better pictures at the above website.
Oh are we glad you are back! Your sense of historical context to these pictures makes this thread so much more interesting.
You broke the code Gerald. And that especially applies to the brain dead who swallow their BS and keep on voting for them.
Thanks for that smellie.I'm glad to see you posts too and happy to learn in the process.
There is a room in Borden Base museum (or is it 2 rooms?) full of interesting firearms,unfortunately lighting in it was so dim and badly positioned that anything behind the glass was very hard to see,never mind up close.
That problem happens in many museums,I notice this mainly with anything mechanical placed behind glass.
There is a room in Borden Base museum (or is it 2 rooms?) full of interesting firearms,unfortunately lighting in it was so dim and badly positioned that anything behind the glass was very hard to see,never mind up close.
That problem happens in many museums,I notice this mainly with anything mechanical placed behind glass.
Only cure for that (apart from starting your own "hands on" museum: I know, we TRIED) is to bring your own light and then to make sure it it gets to the film or the electroniwockle whatchamacallits which actually sense your picture.
Most cameras nowadays -- digital as well as 'old-fashioned, obsolete' film cameras -- seem to have their own flash systems mounted so, generally, you are pretty good for 20 feet or so..... until your batteries run down.
The problem then becomes the light you are producing 'kicking back' from the glass cases. Generally, you can combat this (more or less) effectively by employing a ROTATING POLARISER filter in front of the lens of the camera. What you do is mount the thing on your camera and then ROTATE it until kickback from the lighting in the room disappears as much as it is going to, then shoot your picture.
Rotating polarisers are available in a bewildering variety of sizes. Most of the common sizes run $20 or so, which is not that huge a sacrifice to make if you get better pictures in turn.
Generally, this works. Have fun!
Most cameras nowadays -- digital as well as 'old-fashioned, obsolete' film cameras -- seem to have their own flash systems mounted so, generally, you are pretty good for 20 feet or so..... until your batteries run down.
The problem then becomes the light you are producing 'kicking back' from the glass cases. Generally, you can combat this (more or less) effectively by employing a ROTATING POLARISER filter in front of the lens of the camera. What you do is mount the thing on your camera and then ROTATE it until kickback from the lighting in the room disappears as much as it is going to, then shoot your picture.
Rotating polarisers are available in a bewildering variety of sizes. Most of the common sizes run $20 or so, which is not that huge a sacrifice to make if you get better pictures in turn.
Generally, this works. Have fun!
If you do use a polarizing filter with a digital camera - make sure it is marked 'Circular' polarizer. if it is just marked 'Polarizing' filter it is very likely a 'linear' polarizing filter which apparently can damage digital sensors ... I have used the linear polarizing filter on film cameras but there were some 35mm film SLR's that required 'Circular' polarizing filters to ensure that the 'through the lens' light meter read (and corrected for) the actual light striking the film.
(fwiw - all polarizing filters are 'rotated' to ensure that reflections are dealt with optimally... but there is a difference between the linear and circular polarizing filters)
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Photography, huh? Well then, we can't not mention the most beautiful Spitfires of all, the "PR" variants...
The Brits had another unconventional officer come to the fore in WW2 in the person of Orde Wingate. Wingate went from Captain to Major-General and had notable successes with unconventional tactics and out-of-the-box thinking in the Middle East, East Africa and Burma. Like Lawrence, Wingate was highly eccentric, a social pariah, and a real PITA to deal with. But he got results and results matter in war.
Wingate was thought to hover on the verge of insanity. Although Churchill admired him, he pronounced him too mad for higher command.
Officers who do well in a peacetime military institution sometimes fail miserably in war, and vise versa. I once knew a guy who was a real star in the field, but a real disaster in garrison. His PERs were made up in 2 columns reading "field" and "base". He would be rated as tops in one category in the "field" column, but would be on the bottom in the same category on the "base" side.
I was fortunate to have attended the US Army Command and Staff College during the massive post-Vietnam reforms of the US Army. People are sometimes surprised when I tell them that the book, "Victims of Groupthink" was required reading and a topic for discussion. Groupthinking was what got military and civilian leadership at all levels in trouble in Vietnam.
Unfortunately the "hive mentality", shallow thinking and the pursuit of cookie cutter solutions are alive and well in society and government today, and I think that social media and the Internet are its' biggest boosters.
Many years ago I sat next to a Rabbi at a Jewish War Veterans Association dinner. The Rabbi surprised me by speaking of Orde Wingate whom he had met - and the very high regard he had for him. I knew a little about Wingate based on what my father had mentioned. Later I did more research into Wingate and read that he was a distant relative of TE Lawrence and had helped to train (and arm) the Hagana and the SNS
Speaking of arming the Haganah, legend has it that Wingate took care to ship nearly the total production of DeLisle Carbines to Palestine, where the were gobbled up very quietly by what became the IDF.
Don't know if it is true or not, but it would certainly account for the scarcity today of this superb little assassination weapon.
Main thing that ticks me about it is that they didn't save out one for ME!
Don't know if it is true or not, but it would certainly account for the scarcity today of this superb little assassination weapon.
Main thing that ticks me about it is that they didn't save out one for ME!
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Comrade Mustanginov:
I don't know to what extent eccentricity is accommodated in the British officer corps today, but it's certainly been a mixed blessing for them in the past.
One notable individual was Brig "looney" Hinde who commanded the 22nd Armd Bde in the 7th Armd Div in Normandy. In the middle of issuing orders in the aftermath of the devastating ambush of elements of his bde by Michael Wittmann at Villers Bocage he suddenly stopped, stared fixedly at the ground and excitedly asked, "Anyone got a matchbox?" When one of his bn comds suggested that it might not be the best time to study nature, he exploded, "Don't be such a bloody fool Mike. You can fight a battle every day of your life, but you might not see a caterpillar like that in fifteen years".
Hinde was apparently fearless and reckless to the point that he was habitually was out in front of his troops so that there were regular cautions to forward elements not to engage unidentified vehicles because the brigadier was somewhere out there. Conducting personal "recce by death" isn't the role of a bde comd who should always be in a position to maintain overall situational awareness and exercise effective control of his units. Hinde dicked up a couple of major operations after Villers Bocage, incl his part in Operation Goodwood, and was removed from command.
I've seen and worked with a few bizarre personalities in the Cdn Forces. Most are weeded out at the captain level before they can put too many others at risk, but a few went on to higher command where their defects became quite apparent. The military and other bureaucratic institutions can be a feeding ground for sociopathic personalities and these should be watched for and sifted out whenever possible.
At the extreme we saw Col Russell Williams, a highly performing psychopath, who managed to fool everyone for years until his demons took over. At last report Williams lives in deep isolation where he passes some of his time dodging balls of feces which are chucked at him by other inmates.
One notable individual was Brig "looney" Hinde who commanded the 22nd Armd Bde in the 7th Armd Div in Normandy. In the middle of issuing orders in the aftermath of the devastating ambush of elements of his bde by Michael Wittmann at Villers Bocage he suddenly stopped, stared fixedly at the ground and excitedly asked, "Anyone got a matchbox?" When one of his bn comds suggested that it might not be the best time to study nature, he exploded, "Don't be such a bloody fool Mike. You can fight a battle every day of your life, but you might not see a caterpillar like that in fifteen years".
Hinde was apparently fearless and reckless to the point that he was habitually was out in front of his troops so that there were regular cautions to forward elements not to engage unidentified vehicles because the brigadier was somewhere out there. Conducting personal "recce by death" isn't the role of a bde comd who should always be in a position to maintain overall situational awareness and exercise effective control of his units.
Hinde dicked up a couple of major operations after Villers Bocage, incl his part in Operation Goodwood, and was removed from command.I've seen and worked with a few bizarre personalities in the Cdn Forces. Most are weeded out at the captain level before they can put too many others at risk, but a few went on to higher command where their defects became quite apparent. The military and other bureaucratic institutions can be a feeding ground for sociopathic personalities and these should be watched for and sifted out whenever possible.
At the extreme we saw Col Russell Williams, a highly performing psychopath, who managed to fool everyone for years until his demons took over. At last report Williams lives in deep isolation where he passes some of his time dodging balls of feces which are chucked at him by other inmates.
John, I agree, the army isn't the place for the individuals you mention. That's why they have special units for them. Such individuals can be extremely valuable and efficient in specific operations.
When they're out of their natural element they cause dissent within the ranks and the officers. Often these individuals have engaging and personable characteristics and that allows them to squeeze through the safeguards set up to foil them.
Then there are the oddballs. They don't fit anywhere and often sit on the sidelines seemingly part of a group but never really joining. Usually the Corporals and Sergeants will pick up on that and start psychological screening. Not always though.
I knew a Brit like that. He was a quiet fellow, treated kids very well, loved cats. He would go along on an evening of pub crawling when asked but never really seemed to enjoy himself. Even when we made a point of making sure he was included in the fun. When the crap hit the fan though, he stood up straight and tall and heaven help anyone that got in his way. Absolutely fearless in combat. Crawl under the table in shyness/fear when a pretty girl smiled at him or spoke to him. I looked at him as a ticking time bomb. When there was to much down time he could get very withdrawn. The only thing we knew about him was that he was born in London England and may have deserted from the UK military.
He died in a blaze of fury.
When they're out of their natural element they cause dissent within the ranks and the officers. Often these individuals have engaging and personable characteristics and that allows them to squeeze through the safeguards set up to foil them.
Then there are the oddballs. They don't fit anywhere and often sit on the sidelines seemingly part of a group but never really joining. Usually the Corporals and Sergeants will pick up on that and start psychological screening. Not always though.
I knew a Brit like that. He was a quiet fellow, treated kids very well, loved cats. He would go along on an evening of pub crawling when asked but never really seemed to enjoy himself. Even when we made a point of making sure he was included in the fun. When the crap hit the fan though, he stood up straight and tall and heaven help anyone that got in his way. Absolutely fearless in combat. Crawl under the table in shyness/fear when a pretty girl smiled at him or spoke to him. I looked at him as a ticking time bomb. When there was to much down time he could get very withdrawn. The only thing we knew about him was that he was born in London England and may have deserted from the UK military.
He died in a blaze of fury.
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Late in the war, the Germans were desperate to move what military resources they had. Rail, naturally, was the most effective way to do this. And so, destroying that capacity was considered a priority for Bomber Command.
617 Squadron had already gained fame in the Dams raid of 1943. They had become in Harris's words, a "sniper squadron", tasked to do very precise work against very specific targets - canals, individual factory buildings, the Tirpitz, and now, in the spring of 1945, the Schildesche viaduct.
The Viaduct had been finished in 1847, twinned in 1917. It carried two railroad lines above a swampy bit of countryside, and was considered something of a classic of German engineered infrastructure. As you'll note from the wee round ponds surrounding it in the picture above, the RAF had given it substantial attention to no effect. Enter 617 and the Grand Slam bomb.
One more bit of war-ending genius from Barnes Wallis. The Grand Slam weighed eleven tons, and was right on the edge of what a Lanc could carry to altitude. When dropped from the correct height it flirted with mach 1 and was designed to penetrate deeply, then explode. This would remove material beneath the foundations of anything you wanted gone - sub pens, viaducts, canals, etc. - which would then collapse into the newly created void.
The very first one dropped on ops did this to the Schildesche viaduct:
Repairs were made...
...but the viaduct didn't get back into regular service until the 1960's. It's still in use today, hauling both freight and passengers, in a very different Germany.
But it still looks a bit "patched".
617 Squadron had already gained fame in the Dams raid of 1943. They had become in Harris's words, a "sniper squadron", tasked to do very precise work against very specific targets - canals, individual factory buildings, the Tirpitz, and now, in the spring of 1945, the Schildesche viaduct.
The Viaduct had been finished in 1847, twinned in 1917. It carried two railroad lines above a swampy bit of countryside, and was considered something of a classic of German engineered infrastructure. As you'll note from the wee round ponds surrounding it in the picture above, the RAF had given it substantial attention to no effect. Enter 617 and the Grand Slam bomb.
One more bit of war-ending genius from Barnes Wallis. The Grand Slam weighed eleven tons, and was right on the edge of what a Lanc could carry to altitude. When dropped from the correct height it flirted with mach 1 and was designed to penetrate deeply, then explode. This would remove material beneath the foundations of anything you wanted gone - sub pens, viaducts, canals, etc. - which would then collapse into the newly created void.
The very first one dropped on ops did this to the Schildesche viaduct:
Repairs were made...
...but the viaduct didn't get back into regular service until the 1960's. It's still in use today, hauling both freight and passengers, in a very different Germany.
But it still looks a bit "patched".
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