Our pistol club had a member who was a"DamBuster". He gave us an excellent presentation on the Tirpitz raid, which use the Grand Slam. he was quite enthusiastic about the fact that they now had a accurate bomb they could actually aim effectively.
Picture of the day
- Thread starter jwhc
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
I've read a few books the last while on that bunch - Enemy Coast Ahead by Gibson himself, Bomber Pilot by Cheshire, and most recently The Dambusters by Paul Brickhill. I've gained some limited understanding of the quality of human being it takes to do a job like that, night after night, with every statistical certainly pointing at your death at some point in the near future.
I'm thankful such men existed then, and doubtless still do. Without them, we'd be in trouble.
A list of the Canadians among the 113 who took part in the Dams Raid. Note the fatality rate:
Sergeant James L. Arthur of Coldwater, Ontario. Pilot Officer Burpee’s bomb aimer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Joseph G. Brady of Ponoka, Alberta. Pilot Officer Burpee’s rear gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Charles Brennan of Calgary, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s flight engineer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Ken Brown of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Pilot. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
Pilot Officer Lewis J. Burpee of Ottawa, Ontario. Pilot. Killed.
Sergeant Vernon W. Byers of Star City, Saskatchewan. Pilot. Killed.
Sergeant Alden Preston Cottam of Jasper, Alberta. Squadron Leader Maudsley’s wireless operator. Killed.
Flight Sergeant George A. Deering of Toronto, Ontario. Wing Commander Gibson’s front gunner. Survived the raid but killed in action September 16, 1943. Awarded the DFC.
Flying Officer Kenneth Earnshaw of Bashaw, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s navigator. Killed.
Pilot Officer John W. Fraser of Nanaimo, British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s bomb aimer. Taken prisoner of war following the raid and survived the war.
Sergeant Francis A. Garbas of Hamilton, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s front gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Abram Garshowitz of Hamilton, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s wireless operator. Killed.
Flying Officer Harvey S. Glinz of Winnipeg, Manitoba. Flight Lieutenant Barlow’s front gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Chester B. Gowrie of Tramping Lake, Saskatchewan. Pilot Officer Rice’s wireless operator. Survived the raid but killed in action December 20, 1943.
Flying Officer Vincent S. MacCausland of Tyne Valley, Prince Edward Island. Squadron Leader Young’s bomb aimer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Grant S. MacDonald of Grand Forks, British Columbia. Flight Sergeant Ken Brown’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant James McDowell of Port Arthur, Ontario. Sergeant Byer’s rear gunner. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Donald A. MacLean of Toronto, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s navigator. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the DFM.
Sergeant Stefan Oancia of Stonehenge, Saskatchewan. Flight Sergeant Brown’s bomb aimer. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the DFM.
Sergeant Harry E. O’Brien of Regina, Saskatchewan. Flight Lieutenant Knight’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant Percy E. Pigeon of Williams Lake, British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant Munro’s wireless operator. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant William Radcliffe of British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s flight engineer. Survived the raid and the war.
Flight Lieutenant David Rodger of Sault St. Marie, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant Frederick E. Sutherland of Peace River, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Knight’s front gunner. Survived the war; shot down September 16, 1943, evaded and returned to England.
Pilot Officer Torger Harlo “Terry” Taerum of Milo, Alberta. Wing Commander Gibson’s navigator. Survived the raid but killed in action September 16, 1943. Awarded the DFC.
Flight Sergeant John W. Thrasher of Amherstburg, Ontario. Pilot Officer Rice’s bomb aimer. Survived the raid but killed in action December 20, 1943.
Flying Officer Robert A. Urquhart of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Squadron Leader’s Maudsley’s navigator. Killed during the raid.
Flying Officer D. Revie Walker of Blairmore, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Shannon’s navigator. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded Bar to his DFC.
Fight Sergeant Harvey Weeks. Flight Lieutenant Munro’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Pilot Officer Floyd A. Wile of Truro, Nova Scotia. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s navigator). Killed.
That's 18 killed out of 30, or 60%. Poor odds. Cheshire did a hundred trips and was pulled off ops before the inevitable happened and thus survived the war. Gibson had been put on desk duty, caught a flight in a Mosquito, wanted one more op, flew a pathfinder mission in a Mosquito with a fellow which ended in a hill in Holland. 26 years old.
One that made it through two tours alive was Robert Clothier, DFC. That's him in the middle.
You've seen him in different kit.
Yep, Relic flew two tours with Bomber Command (56 ops total in Hampdens, Halifaxes and Lancs) and then came home and crashed a B25 while training guys at #5 OTU in BC. Broke his back. Couldn't walk for two years.
Then acted, sculpted and painted until he died in 1996.
I'm thankful such men existed then, and doubtless still do. Without them, we'd be in trouble.
A list of the Canadians among the 113 who took part in the Dams Raid. Note the fatality rate:
Sergeant James L. Arthur of Coldwater, Ontario. Pilot Officer Burpee’s bomb aimer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Joseph G. Brady of Ponoka, Alberta. Pilot Officer Burpee’s rear gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Charles Brennan of Calgary, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s flight engineer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Ken Brown of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Pilot. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
Pilot Officer Lewis J. Burpee of Ottawa, Ontario. Pilot. Killed.
Sergeant Vernon W. Byers of Star City, Saskatchewan. Pilot. Killed.
Sergeant Alden Preston Cottam of Jasper, Alberta. Squadron Leader Maudsley’s wireless operator. Killed.
Flight Sergeant George A. Deering of Toronto, Ontario. Wing Commander Gibson’s front gunner. Survived the raid but killed in action September 16, 1943. Awarded the DFC.
Flying Officer Kenneth Earnshaw of Bashaw, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s navigator. Killed.
Pilot Officer John W. Fraser of Nanaimo, British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s bomb aimer. Taken prisoner of war following the raid and survived the war.
Sergeant Francis A. Garbas of Hamilton, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s front gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Abram Garshowitz of Hamilton, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s wireless operator. Killed.
Flying Officer Harvey S. Glinz of Winnipeg, Manitoba. Flight Lieutenant Barlow’s front gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Chester B. Gowrie of Tramping Lake, Saskatchewan. Pilot Officer Rice’s wireless operator. Survived the raid but killed in action December 20, 1943.
Flying Officer Vincent S. MacCausland of Tyne Valley, Prince Edward Island. Squadron Leader Young’s bomb aimer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Grant S. MacDonald of Grand Forks, British Columbia. Flight Sergeant Ken Brown’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant James McDowell of Port Arthur, Ontario. Sergeant Byer’s rear gunner. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Donald A. MacLean of Toronto, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s navigator. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the DFM.
Sergeant Stefan Oancia of Stonehenge, Saskatchewan. Flight Sergeant Brown’s bomb aimer. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the DFM.
Sergeant Harry E. O’Brien of Regina, Saskatchewan. Flight Lieutenant Knight’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant Percy E. Pigeon of Williams Lake, British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant Munro’s wireless operator. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant William Radcliffe of British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s flight engineer. Survived the raid and the war.
Flight Lieutenant David Rodger of Sault St. Marie, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant Frederick E. Sutherland of Peace River, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Knight’s front gunner. Survived the war; shot down September 16, 1943, evaded and returned to England.
Pilot Officer Torger Harlo “Terry” Taerum of Milo, Alberta. Wing Commander Gibson’s navigator. Survived the raid but killed in action September 16, 1943. Awarded the DFC.
Flight Sergeant John W. Thrasher of Amherstburg, Ontario. Pilot Officer Rice’s bomb aimer. Survived the raid but killed in action December 20, 1943.
Flying Officer Robert A. Urquhart of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Squadron Leader’s Maudsley’s navigator. Killed during the raid.
Flying Officer D. Revie Walker of Blairmore, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Shannon’s navigator. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded Bar to his DFC.
Fight Sergeant Harvey Weeks. Flight Lieutenant Munro’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Pilot Officer Floyd A. Wile of Truro, Nova Scotia. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s navigator). Killed.
That's 18 killed out of 30, or 60%. Poor odds. Cheshire did a hundred trips and was pulled off ops before the inevitable happened and thus survived the war. Gibson had been put on desk duty, caught a flight in a Mosquito, wanted one more op, flew a pathfinder mission in a Mosquito with a fellow which ended in a hill in Holland. 26 years old.
One that made it through two tours alive was Robert Clothier, DFC. That's him in the middle.
You've seen him in different kit.
Yep, Relic flew two tours with Bomber Command (56 ops total in Hampdens, Halifaxes and Lancs) and then came home and crashed a B25 while training guys at #5 OTU in BC. Broke his back. Couldn't walk for two years.
Then acted, sculpted and painted until he died in 1996.
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Dang, in complete agreement with the quote! Simply did not know, another quiet unassuming Hero.....
Dirk
rockport guy
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Riverview NB
I've read a few books the last while on that bunch - Enemy Coast Ahead by Gibson himself, Bomber Pilot by Cheshire, and most recently The Dambusters by Paul Brickhill. I've gained some limited understanding of the quality of human being it takes to do a job like that, night after night, with every statistical certainly pointing at your death at some point in the near future.
I'm thankful such men existed then, and doubtless still do. Without them, we'd be in trouble.
A list of the Canadians among the 113 who took part in the Dams Raid. Note the fatality rate:
Sergeant James L. Arthur of Coldwater, Ontario. Pilot Officer Burpee’s bomb aimer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Joseph G. Brady of Ponoka, Alberta. Pilot Officer Burpee’s rear gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Charles Brennan of Calgary, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s flight engineer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Ken Brown of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Pilot. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
Pilot Officer Lewis J. Burpee of Ottawa, Ontario. Pilot. Killed.
Sergeant Vernon W. Byers of Star City, Saskatchewan. Pilot. Killed.
Sergeant Alden Preston Cottam of Jasper, Alberta. Squadron Leader Maudsley’s wireless operator. Killed.
Flight Sergeant George A. Deering of Toronto, Ontario. Wing Commander Gibson’s front gunner. Survived the raid but killed in action September 16, 1943. Awarded the DFC.
Flying Officer Kenneth Earnshaw of Bashaw, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s navigator. Killed.
Pilot Officer John W. Fraser of Nanaimo, British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant Hopgood’s bomb aimer. Taken prisoner of war following the raid and survived the war.
Sergeant Francis A. Garbas of Hamilton, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s front gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Abram Garshowitz of Hamilton, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s wireless operator. Killed.
Flying Officer Harvey S. Glinz of Winnipeg, Manitoba. Flight Lieutenant Barlow’s front gunner. Killed.
Sergeant Chester B. Gowrie of Tramping Lake, Saskatchewan. Pilot Officer Rice’s wireless operator. Survived the raid but killed in action December 20, 1943.
Flying Officer Vincent S. MacCausland of Tyne Valley, Prince Edward Island. Squadron Leader Young’s bomb aimer. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Grant S. MacDonald of Grand Forks, British Columbia. Flight Sergeant Ken Brown’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant James McDowell of Port Arthur, Ontario. Sergeant Byer’s rear gunner. Killed.
Flight Sergeant Donald A. MacLean of Toronto, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s navigator. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the DFM.
Sergeant Stefan Oancia of Stonehenge, Saskatchewan. Flight Sergeant Brown’s bomb aimer. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded the DFM.
Sergeant Harry E. O’Brien of Regina, Saskatchewan. Flight Lieutenant Knight’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant Percy E. Pigeon of Williams Lake, British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant Munro’s wireless operator. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant William Radcliffe of British Columbia. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s flight engineer. Survived the raid and the war.
Flight Lieutenant David Rodger of Sault St. Marie, Ontario. Flight Lieutenant McCarthy’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Sergeant Frederick E. Sutherland of Peace River, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Knight’s front gunner. Survived the war; shot down September 16, 1943, evaded and returned to England.
Pilot Officer Torger Harlo “Terry” Taerum of Milo, Alberta. Wing Commander Gibson’s navigator. Survived the raid but killed in action September 16, 1943. Awarded the DFC.
Flight Sergeant John W. Thrasher of Amherstburg, Ontario. Pilot Officer Rice’s bomb aimer. Survived the raid but killed in action December 20, 1943.
Flying Officer Robert A. Urquhart of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Squadron Leader’s Maudsley’s navigator. Killed during the raid.
Flying Officer D. Revie Walker of Blairmore, Alberta. Flight Lieutenant Shannon’s navigator. Survived the raid and the war. Awarded Bar to his DFC.
Fight Sergeant Harvey Weeks. Flight Lieutenant Munro’s rear gunner. Survived the raid and the war.
Pilot Officer Floyd A. Wile of Truro, Nova Scotia. Flight Lieutenant Astell’s navigator). Killed.
That's 18 killed out of 30, or 60%. Poor odds. Cheshire did a hundred trips and was pulled off ops before the inevitable happened and thus survived the war. Gibson had been put on desk duty, caught a flight in a Mosquito, wanted one more op, flew a pathfinder mission in a Mosquito with a fellow which ended in a hill in Holland. 26 years old.
One that made it through two tours alive was Robert Clothier, DFC. That's him in the middle.
You've seen him in different kit.
Yep, Relic flew two tours with Bomber Command (56 ops total in Hampdens, Halifaxes and Lancs) and then came home and crashed a B25 while training guys at #5 OTU in BC. Broke his back. Couldn't walk for two years.
Then acted, sculpted and painted until he died in 1996.
Wow... learn something new every day!!
My Dad was a gunner on a Lancaster.. he passed away in 89.. I know he watched that tv show... and now wonder if he ever knew this!
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
In Gibson's book, he talks about the different standard of dress between fighter squadrons and bomber squadrons. The bomber lads tended toward standard kit - shirt, tie, shave regualrly, overseas cap at correct jaunty angle, etc.
The fighter guys went in for more individualized looks based on comfort, style, and an improved chance of getting some trim at the pub in town. Their Squadron Leaders seemed to allow it. Morale and all.
And so you get pics of bomber guys...
And fighter lads:
http://3.bp.########.com/_JRDTp6G8q7c/TIOcX1p2CLI/AAAAAAAAA1E/ImrT1JCxMd4/s1600/BOB5.bmp
The bomber guys look like steely-eyed professionals. The fighter guys look like they're trying out looks for the cover of their first album.
And don't get me started on the Australians, whose default mode seemed to be "Bloody squadron's only got foive shirts, mate. I get a turn next week sometoime.."
The fighter guys went in for more individualized looks based on comfort, style, and an improved chance of getting some trim at the pub in town. Their Squadron Leaders seemed to allow it. Morale and all.
And so you get pics of bomber guys...
And fighter lads:
http://3.bp.########.com/_JRDTp6G8q7c/TIOcX1p2CLI/AAAAAAAAA1E/ImrT1JCxMd4/s1600/BOB5.bmp
The bomber guys look like steely-eyed professionals. The fighter guys look like they're trying out looks for the cover of their first album.
And don't get me started on the Australians, whose default mode seemed to be "Bloody squadron's only got foive shirts, mate. I get a turn next week sometoime.."
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Goes back to WWI. English Airmen were originally drawn from the upper classes. They viewed themselves as the spiritual descendants of the Knightly Class. Gentlemen warriors in noble combat aboard their mighty steeds. It was a conceit borne by many of the European air corps of WWI, even after the ghastly attrition thinned out the ranks of the petty nobility to the point where mere commoners and *gasp* colonials were allowed in (like Bishop and May).
The conceit lasted a lot longer among the English than in most other nations. And a gentleman, of course, must never be seen improperly presented. If that means wearing a shirt with a starched collar and tie knotted with a proper Full Windsor, regardless of the inconvenience, then so it shall be.
fat tony
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yes it looks like a Keltec Sub 9. Bolt can be long & thin & have similar mass. Seems the rpm was 800 or so.
Devised by a US Army WO.He also made a bullpup rifle based on the BAR.
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
"Lieutenant, may I have permission to use the drill press again?"
"Jesus, Cook, you love that goddamn thing. Sure, go nuts, but exercise a little restraint, will you? Your projects all look like they've been shot up."
But M/Sgt. Cook loved his speed holes and would not be denied...
"Jesus, Cook, you love that goddamn thing. Sure, go nuts, but exercise a little restraint, will you? Your projects all look like they've been shot up."
But M/Sgt. Cook loved his speed holes and would not be denied...
For those interested in the subject of " Submachine Guns ",
The World's Submachine Guns, Vol. 1: Developments from 1915-1963 Hardcover – June 1, 1986
by Thomas B. Nelson
The World's Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns, Vol. 2A: Developments from 1964-1980 0th Edition
by Thomas B. Nelson (Author), Daniel D. Musgrave (Author)
The World's Submachine Guns, Vol. 1: Developments from 1915-1963 Hardcover – June 1, 1986
by Thomas B. Nelson
The World's Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns, Vol. 2A: Developments from 1964-1980 0th Edition
by Thomas B. Nelson (Author), Daniel D. Musgrave (Author)
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Excellent resources, surely, but if you need a lil' kick to get your heart started this morning, price those out on Amazon...
MUCH more reasonable on AbeBooks:
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/author/nelson-thomas-b-and-musgrave-daniel-d/
MUCH more reasonable on AbeBooks:
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/author/nelson-thomas-b-and-musgrave-daniel-d/
Could be that Sgt Cook once had the experience of lugging a heavy Thompson SMG with 50 rd drum mag thru the bush. There's a reason why desperados like "Machine Gun Jack" McGurn and Baby Face Nelson preferred to use the Tommy in a "mounted" role.
About 30 yrs ago I bought a first edition of the Roger A Cox book on the Thompson. It's now going for $250 USD.
Re: the tie question amongst aircrew .....
I think there was a more practical explanation for the sweater amongst fighters pilots. They operated at higher altitudes than did bomber crews. RAF/RCAF bomber crews flew at comparatively lower altitudes where it wasn't quite so cold.
However, I believe that US Army Air Corps bomber pilots wore ties. Perhaps they had better heaters and heated flight suits? :>)
I think there was a more practical explanation for the sweater amongst fighters pilots. They operated at higher altitudes than did bomber crews. RAF/RCAF bomber crews flew at comparatively lower altitudes where it wasn't quite so cold.
However, I believe that US Army Air Corps bomber pilots wore ties. Perhaps they had better heaters and heated flight suits? :>)
A friend who died last year at age 93 was a tail gunner in a Halifax during 33 missions over Europe. He was wounded by flak on one occasion and said that he was pretty worried about the blood shorting out his electric flying suit.
Perhaps the RAF sweater worn by fighter pilots was the equivalent of the dash & elan of the WWI silk scarf affectation.
My understanding of the lack of tight collars and ties had more to do with the potential for chafed necks then anything else. At that time a fighter pilots survival depended a lot on "situational awareness" . Never looking in one direction for more than a few seconds. The "bad guy" at your six was a definite cause for concern! A silk scarf or soft sweater was much better for the neck "swivelling" which was very much necessary to stay alive.
