There is a lot of nuance to this discussion that really doesn’t fit into our modern black vs white / binary way of looking at what is right and what is wrong. There is a legitimate question as to whether a mainland invasion of Japan would have cost even more casualties that the nuclear and firebombing of major cities. If you are fighting to win, in a war that you didn’t start, do you really think people are going to worry about how many enemies (combatant and non-combatant) that you kill? So questions like this really have 10 different answers all depending on what you value more in the equation.
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- Thread starter jwhc
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I’ve read stories about the thought of a ground mainland invasion and at first it was deemed possible, then another recon and plan realized that it would take many more troops to consider it and later, after another recon and plan was developed it was concluded that it would be nearly impossible and the casualty count would be tremendous.
I worked for a Japanese company and spent some time there on course and returned often so got to know the mindset of the average citizen there. They would have fought to the last man and then some.
Although there was a tremendous loss of life with the two blasts, that would be mild in comparison to the loss of life in a mainland invasion.
Cottage Hill Bill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Pensacola, FL USA
Another number to take into account when tallying how many live were possibly saved by the bombs versus would have been lost in an invasion are the losses in Japanese occupied areas like China and Korea. The estimate is that Japan was responsible for somewhere between 3 and 10 million non-combatant deaths in China alone. Even after the second bomb half of the Japanese cabinet were in favor of continuing the war.
Actually, it was a very near thing, involved an assassination and a plot to kidnap the emperor as well as stealing the recording of the surrender announcement. the fanatics were determined to carry on.
https://www.amazon.ca/Japans-Longest-Pacific-Research-Society/dp/0870110616
Grizz
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Sounds good. I'll take twenty of each.
Meanwhile, back in Afghanistan...
Meanwhile, back in Afghanistan...
Sounds good. I'll take twenty of each.
Meanwhile, back in Afghanistan...
I’m reading this right now and so far there have been a lot of Lee Enfields successfully employed in ambushes.
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Every time I see an apologist post pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bemoaning the use of atomic bombs on civilians all I can think of is “boo hoo” … my mother got caught in several different raids on London. The only time she even mentioned it was when she was admitting to being ‘naughty’ as a WAAF … hitching a joy ride with a girl who was driving a vehicle from their base at Biggin Hill to London (at night during blackout) to deliver some documents and they drove through part of the city while a raid was on avoiding burning buildings etc - she was more afraid of arriving late for duty and trying to explain where she had been as she wasnt authorized to be on that particular trip.
And it wasnt just London … the ‘blitz’ hammered the whole country killing 45,000 people https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-blitz-around-britain
btw — did I mention they also bombed Biggin Hill? Killed 39
Not to mention the other European cities that the Germans flattened or hit with V2’s
And it wasnt just London … the ‘blitz’ hammered the whole country killing 45,000 people https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-blitz-around-britain
btw — did I mention they also bombed Biggin Hill? Killed 39
Not to mention the other European cities that the Germans flattened or hit with V2’s
My GM was a nurse during the war stationed in London when she met my GP. Eventually my GM got pregnant and about 8 months into her pregnancy, she was in a grocery store that took a direct hit from a V2.
Rescue crews eventually found her unconscious in the rubble 3 days later. She remained in a coma for a week or 2 and when she woke up, they introduced her to her new baby boy which the doc's had saved through a cesarean birth while she was out. That baby (my Dad) became one of the few thousand kids that was put on the Queen Mary and shipped over to families in Canada in fear of the upcoming invasion of Britton.
My GM and GP were reunited with my Dad after the war and they went on to have a big family and full lives.
If it wasn't for those first responders that day, I wouldn't be here today to recant the story.
(Funny story): when my Dad filed for his retirement with the Canadian Gov at 65, it was only then that he found out that even though he spent his whole life here he had never been made an official Canadian Citizen. There was apparently a lot of paperwork snafus with that shipload of kids and the vast majority ended up in the same situation years later. He had to do the Citizenship ceremony before he could file for his pensions! He didn't become an official Canadian until he was almost 66 but lived, worked and raised a family here since he was just a few months old.
A very special man!
Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
V2 strikes were apparently fairly plentiful. Here's a map (website here: https://londonist.com/2013/06/v2):
Granted they made a hell of a lot bigger bang than what the Heinkels and Junkers might drop, but here's another one showing what the Luftwaffe did with regular air-dropped munitions:
Despite this, it just made the locals even more dedicated to giving Ol' Adolf one up the pants.
Ballsy people, that generation. Good lesson, too - you can't bomb people into submission unless there are other forces involved.
Granted they made a hell of a lot bigger bang than what the Heinkels and Junkers might drop, but here's another one showing what the Luftwaffe did with regular air-dropped munitions:
Despite this, it just made the locals even more dedicated to giving Ol' Adolf one up the pants.
Ballsy people, that generation. Good lesson, too - you can't bomb people into submission unless there are other forces involved.
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V2 strikes were apparently fairly plentiful. Here's a map (website here: https://londonist.com/2013/06/v2):
Granted they made a hell of a lot bigger bang than what the Heinkels and Junkers might drop, but here's another one showing what the Luftwaffe did with regular air-dropped munitions:
Despite this, it just made the locals even more dedicated to giving Ol' Adolf one up the pants.
Ballsy people, that generation. Good lesson, too - you can't bomb people into submission unless there are other forces involved.
Perhaps a good segue to bomb disposal and men with big balls https://www.historynet.com/bombs-away-london/
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Holy fvck:
That's worse than Bomber Command, and those boys were killed, wounded, or captured at a truly awful rate.
Spare a moment to think of FS Andrew Pawluk of Calmar, AB, tailgunner of ME695.
That's worse than Bomber Command, and those boys were killed, wounded, or captured at a truly awful rate.
Spare a moment to think of FS Andrew Pawluk of Calmar, AB, tailgunner of ME695.
There was a 1979 British TV series called "Danger UXB" about bomb disposal techs in London. I remember watching it back in the day.
When the germans became aware of the bomb disposal efforts they would intentionally booby trap bombs to try to kill the British techs.
When the germans became aware of the bomb disposal efforts they would intentionally booby trap bombs to try to kill the British techs.
"And what have we now in Germany? A country of bankers and car-makers. Even our great army has gone soft. Soldiers wear beards and question orders. I am not ashamed to say I believed in National Socialism. I still wear the Iron Cross with diamonds Hitler gave me. But today in all of Germany you can't find a single person who voted Adolf Hitler into power ... Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the real guilt we share – that we lost." -Hanna Reitsch (Laytner, Ron (19 February 1981). "The first astronaut: tiny, daring Hanna". The Desert News. p. 12C.)
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Dark Alley Dan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Darkest Edmonton
Hell of a pilot, not much of a human being.
Just finished reading Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945-1955 by Harald Jahner. Remarkable book. If you want some insight into the German mindset after the war, it's worth your time. Ms. Reitsch may not have been alone in her beliefs, but she was in the minority. Germans were quick to move on afterwards, and damned few pined for the Glorious Days of "marching ever eastward to a bold new world without the verminous Slavs."
Just finished reading Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945-1955 by Harald Jahner. Remarkable book. If you want some insight into the German mindset after the war, it's worth your time. Ms. Reitsch may not have been alone in her beliefs, but she was in the minority. Germans were quick to move on afterwards, and damned few pined for the Glorious Days of "marching ever eastward to a bold new world without the verminous Slavs."
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