Pistol advice Glock Vs Sig

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Canuck44 said:
KIDD X this is really getting embarrassing. I am not at all sure how to reply to stupid. My gut sense is, one can't. You say a Shadow is a SA gun then you speak to it's DA trigger. Weird or what! One can choose to safely drop the hammer manually, it happens thousands of times every week-end at IPSC & IDPA matches around the world. Why you think it is dangerous to do so is beyond me.

Read what Peter G said his advice is spot on. The only reason why some of us reply to your drivel is to prevent someone who is just starting out to get misinformation and look like an idiot when he defines a DA/SA gun as having to have a decocker or it is a SA gun. Makes me smile just referencing that comment.

If you want to troll, fair enough, fill your boots. Your circular arguments get tiring after a bit and your knowledge base is frankly, quite thin.

FYI Stock Service Pistol Division is an IDPA division and has nothing to do with IPSC. SSP division is not restricted to DA/SA guns. DAO and Striker fired pistols also shoot in that division. SA guns play in ESP/ CDP/ CCP and BUG. Three of those divisions also include DA/SA guns.

We don't see a lot of DA/SA hammer guns in SSP division, though more recently. Lighter, striker fired polymer guns dominate the division and have for a number of years. There are reasons why, outside of their design, but that is for another discussion on another forum. In the US most of the competitors shoot what they often carry (Marksman/Sharpshooter types). Draw your own conclusions.

Take Care

Bob.
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Wow, just wow. You people are too much fun to get wound up!! Let me try and explain this for the slower amongst us.

I will assume we all know what a DA/SA gun is as far as trigger control is concerned. Yes, the Shadow is marketed and sold and does offer the same functions as a DA/SA gun. All but one important one, that is the ability to decock it. The design is simply sh*t. It's unsafe and poorly thought out. Here's the ruling from IDPA about start positions and guns.

8.2.1.1 Start Condition
A. Selective DA/SA firearms will start hammer down.
B. Firearms with a hammer de-cocking lever or button will have their hammer de-cocked using the lever or button.
C. If the hammer must be lowered by pulling the trigger and manually lowering the hammer, the hammer will belowered to the lowest position possible.
D. Manual safeties may be engaged at the shooter’s discretion.

Odd how they offer a rule that caters specifically to dumb designs that are dangerous and missing controls. What's more puzzling is that they specifically state that it is ok to thumb the hammer on a Shadow but not on a gun that was properly designed with a decocker. Now is that because it's safe to do so with the Shadow and not safe with say a SIG?? That can't be right, it makes no DIFFERENCE which gun you thumb the hammer on the action is dangerous and dumb.

Hey quick pop quiz for the smart folks. What does rule number three say in the fundamental four rules of firearms handling?? Times up!

All guns are always loaded.
Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the concsious decision to shoot).
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


That's strange, it's almost like the IDPA rule book is making an exception specifically for poorly designed guns, and ignoring number three in the fundamental four at the same time. Reinforcing bad habits seems to be all the rage! Question two Bob, how many ND's have occurred when decocking a pistol compared to ND's while thumbing the hammer? I bet the answer is zero and many.

Here's another IDPA rule. Notice the bold part about finger being out of the trigger guard while LOADING. I guess this rule also doesn't apply to Shadows or other poorly designed DA/SA guns.

. The trigger finger must be outside the trigger guard and straight along the frame of the firearm during loading, unloading, drawing, holstering, while moving (unless engaging targets) or during malfunction clearance. The trigger finger may be used to activate a magazine release, cylinder release, slide lock, or to open the cylinder, but otherwise must be straight along the frame

I will admit I'm not well versed in the divisions, classes or categories for those silly games like IDPA and IPSC. Nevertheless my point stands. By bending the rules or rather writing in specific rules that allow Shadows to be manually decocked was done to let the gamer types play using their competition pistol and it's single action target style trigger against the average service guns. I'm not saying the SA trigger makes all the difference because it certainly does not. However, the specific rules allowing the Shadow is just bad form. It promotes dangerous gun handling, poor habits and screams of bias. Much like the rule bending in IPSC which allows the pinning or disabling of grip safeties.

Fun fact for you Bob. Of all the ND's I've heard about at matches especially where someone got shot, they've all happened at IPSC or IDPA events. Oddly enough the IPSC ND's usually happen in the "safe handling area". You know, that spot where no ammo is allowed....:rolleyes:

rkm456 said:
What about revolvers?
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The "modern" double action revolver is/was designed to be fired in double action. The fact the SA has been included was a hangover from SAO revolver days. Either way, still a very outdated and less than smart design. There is also the fact that you the shooter selectively chose to #### the hammer and fire in SA. Failing to fire or choosing not to after the fact is a problem that is yours and yours alone. Hence revolvers should be fired DA only. The same can be said for lever guns as well, another poor design that didn't involve a lot of thought with regards to manual of arms.

Canuck44 said:
Jeez don't confuse the boy he is still struggling with his definitions. Arguing with Kidd X is like wrestling with a pig you get dirty and the pig enjoys it. He lives in his own reality so he can define guns anyway he wants. He is like a drunk walking down a narrow alley bouncing off the walls and unconcerned with his reality. If only the world saw life as he sees it. He actually believes a CZ Shadow is a SA gun that comes with a bad DA trigger. It must since he often complains about the DA trigger on the Shadow, all the while claiming it is a SA gun. You have to be quick to follow his bouncing ball.

Take Care

Bob
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Comprehension Bob, it's what's lacking in over 40% of Canadians skill sets. Yes, the Shadow operates in both DA and SA, but it is not a properly designed DA/SA gun if you can't safely decock it without the use of the trigger. Read above. Maybe a few times.

Gundoggy said:
I guess all the gun writers in the 80's and 90's as well as various manufacturers didn't know what a "True DA/SA" is as CZ75, early Beretta 92's, Taurus PT92 were all described as DA/SA. The DA/SA refers to the capability of the firearm to fire first shot DA with subsequent shots SA. Some of the pistols that could do this could ALSO be cocked and locked giving you a selective DA/SA vs. a strictly DA/SA like Beretta 92FS, and classic non SAO Sigs. Even the current CZ website describes the classic CZ 75 as DA/SA although one could choose to carry it cocked and locked.

I will concede the early methods of lowering the hammer potentially is unsafe which led to Beretta 92's changing to decocking/safety levers and some CZ clones chose to have decocking lever and were not able to be carried in condition one.
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Again, comprehension. Read above.

Gundoggy said:
And if you really want to get complicated. The Walther P99 had three trigger modes.

1. AS mode...chamber round. The striker is cocked but trigger is in forward position. There is a very light take up...half way through the trigger 'clicks into' single action trigger mode. When the P99 first came out, even the instruction manual suggested one could carry in this mode. The HK's LEM mode feels very much like this except it can't lock in single action.

2. DA mode...chamber round, press decocker...traditional DA mode. New manuals suggest this as the only safe method to carry.

3. SA Mode...this is default mode after a shot is fired. OR....from AS mode one slow presses trigger til it 'clicks' into SA mode...generally not recommended.
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The P99 is it's own rabid abortion of a design. A very dumb design that didn't exactly take off. In fact the P99 is the only pistol(of the 8 Walther is offering) that has that stupid system. Perhaps that's a clue??
 
DILLIGAF said:
APEX fixes the issue :)




Best reply in this entire thread
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For a gun that SIG claims they spent 10 years developing and a gun with a single action trigger, it shouldn't take the addition of an aftermarket part to produce an acceptable trigger. Even that is debatable. The Apex trigger reduces pull from 8lbs to 6.5lbs?!?! Are you f**king kidding me! Oh and just a technical note from APEX about their triggers.


IMPORTANT NOTICE:
This product is ONLY for use in the "factory upgraded" models of the P320
which have the full complement safety enhancements.

Yes, the issue about not being drop safe is a real problem contrary to what the uneducated wish to have you believe.
 
A "poorly designed" DA/SA is still a DA/SA gun mechanically. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that's the point of many on this thread.

Modern automobiles are safer and more refined than the Model T. The model T is still an automobile.
 
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I disagree that it's a poorly designed gun, I believe, as do many others, that it's a well designed gun.

I don't like them because I don't like the feel in my hand. (Too many years carrying a BHP).

I do shoot them well, and came second overall and first in Standard at my first IPSC match in Nice, France, using a CZ75 that I handled and dry fired the night before. I was a guest of Nice Customs.

Kidd-X. Your posts are wrought with contradictions, as many have pointed out. Go back and read them.
 
Well we make progress. Kiddx admits the Shadow is a DA/SA gun! See KIDDX all those posts where you look like an idiot were not necessary but they did establish you as one. There is a difference to having a preference over one design over another but to claim as you do that certain guns, some of which are quite popular, are junk just because you think they are junk or do not fit some construed notion of your ultimate authority on firearm design is really childish and in fact, quite apparently not true.

Take Care

Bob
 
My biggest mistake was not buying the 13 round compact CZ-75 clones back in the Pre 12.6 days. It's a nice design.
 
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RePete it would appear he now believes he can correctly interpret IDPA rules. Now that is a feat in itself. For those of you who shoot IDPA you will note the irony in that statement. LOL. He certainly has an intriguing mind.

Take Care

Bob
 
iu
 
How did this thread go from a simple question from a rookie to this slagging match with endless stupid garbage information. Poor guys head must be spinning.

Sig 320 or Glock 17. Both are good solid guns. I personally prefer the trigger and ergonomics of the 320. This doesn't mean the Glock is a bad firearm. If you want to add the Walther PPQ to the equation in my view the trigger is slightly better than the Sig and I do mean slightly. Of the three I think the Walther PPQ M2 5" is probably my preference but only by a small margin over the Sig. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE GLOCK IS BAD BUT I DEFINITELY DISLIKE THE TRIGGER AND STAND BY MY COMMENT THAT IT IS ABOUT THE WORST TRIGGER CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. I tried a Glock gen 5 the other day and while the trigger is a little better it is still not as good as either the Sig or the Walther.

Now can we please stop with the dumb-arse over the top rhetoric.
 
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