Piston Driven ARs

Dsiwy said:
Most guns can fire under water but its usless since your bullets are not effective.
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That's not what I said. From underwater means that the muzzle points out of the water, while the rest of the firearm, including the bolt group and chamber are under water.

Dsiwy said:
G36 cocking handle is awful, try cocking it under extreme stress or with artic mitts
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Are you basing this on your experience with an SL8-5 with the long rail? Yes? Then I agree with you. But if you use the factory carry-handle/optic, or an after-market rail like what Knight's makes, you will not have any problems. The SL8 is not the same as the G36, do not base your experiences with one as the reality of the other. And it is also a matter of training. I'm sure the Bundeszoldaten or the Spanish Marines have no problem operating their G36's.
 
G36

Leibermuster said:
Oh really there small timer! Enjoy your easy PPLI life and keep drinking your Colt Canada Cool Aid bucko! You have never touched a rifle besides your Colt Canada PROPAGANDA WEAPON...LOL. It was a great company when it was still owned by Canadians...and they had there own name. Amazing how putting the word Canada in front of anything suddenly makes it the Holy Grail...

ALSO YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS DONE SERVICE HERE.

And for your info, compared too you, I am the Lane, your just a pylon to be passed!

Thanks for your recent service.
And remember looking at another soldier holding a G36 is not as good as actually using it and shooting it extensively, I have.
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1. Greg_VP's experience is not in question. I would stack his combat experience up against most other Canadians on here.

2. I am a self loathing Canadian and am the first to call down Canadians for being self righteous nationalists. However, Colt Canada makes a quality product. And, yeah I know the rails are out of spec but don't blame them, blame the customers.

3. The G-36 is an unremarkable rifle produced by an unremarkable company with politics that leave much to be desired.

4. As far as the piston thing goes. It doesn't matter if you NEED a piston gun, if you want one then go ahead and buy one.....I don't need 3/4 of the stuff I have. But, don't drink the Kool-Aid. Pay close attention to KevinB's comments.
 
oenone said:
That's not what I said. From underwater means that the muzzle points out of the water, while the rest of the firearm, including the bolt group and chamber are under water.



Are you basing this on your experience with an SL8-5 with the long rail? Yes? Then I agree with you. But if you use the factory carry-handle/optic, or an after-market rail like what Knight's makes, you will not have any problems. The SL8 is not the same as the G36, do not base your experiences with one as the reality of the other. And it is also a matter of training. I'm sure the Bundeszoldaten or the Spanish Marines have no problem operating their G36's.
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Funny when I think of elite soldiers the Spanish marines and Bundeszoldaten dont come too mind ;) Euro solders are like Glame rockers

Why on earth would you be underwater shooting with only your muzzle out lol
 
Dsiwy said:
Funny when I think of elite soldiers the Spanish marines and Bundeszoldaten dont come too mind ;) Euro solders are like Glame rockers

Why on earth would you be underwater shooting with only your muzzle out lol
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That's a course pre-requisite for the euro underwater/scuba knife fighting qual.
 
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For those who want to take this thread in a personal attack direction, this will be your last posted warning before harsh, unfair, unreasonable and mean punitive action is taken against you. So stop now. Keep the thread to a purely technical discussion only.



_____________ see this line? No more bulls**t follows after it in this thread
 
-Cocking handle You might not like it, but it doesn't snag on anything

Hard to #### if you have mitts or in high stress

-goto Nato standard mags NATO standard mags, in the opinion of some, are rubbish.

New M16 mags are fine and you need a nato standard

-Adj stock That is available as an option, but like it was something gradually introduce on the AR-15.

Good point

-Metal 1913 rail B+T makes them. If you are like Lithuania, upgrade your firearms to that. The polymer rail is good regardless, why would you need metal?

Ummmm IT MUST BE METAL if your going to mount optics

-strengthen the handgaurds so the forward rails will not flex and shift your PEQ zero Uh, the handguard is free-floating. It can flex all you want, but your barrel stays true, as they do not touch.

You miss the piont, If you can flex the hand gaurd which your PEQ is attached too then it will shift your lasers point of aim

-Back up sights They exist on the factory optics, and you can get a variety of rails to suit your needs.

Ok

-M203 option AG36 is comparable.

What if you want to mount some thing other then an HK 40mm

-Metal single point sling mount Not necessary. The polymer one is very well designed.
Admittedly, it is only on the left side of the firearm.

metal single point sling clip vs polymer mount = broken mount "am talking with normal military use"
 
Dsiwy said:
Ummmm IT MUST BE METAL if your going to mount optics
Must be? Why? Metal expands and contracts more than polymer, possibly throwing off the zero more.

You miss the piont, If you can flex the hand gaurd which your PEQ is attached too then it will shift your lasers point of aim
Agreed. But it is noted that the Germans affix their LLM01 to the side of their optics, making the flexing of the the hand-guard a non-issue, as it is used as a hand-guard, not a mounting area. The B+T solution exists if you want a more rigid hand-guard, but it will expand and contract more with the temperatures.

What if you want to mount some thing other then an HK 40mm
Sometimes things just are not available. What if I want to view flash on my iPhone? I agree that it is important not to have to repurchase grenade launchers if you already have them, so I think that some after-market solution would pop up if this was a problem encountered frequently.

Metal single point sling clip vs polymer mount = broken mount "am talking with normal military use"
If you can find me a report of this happening among the many users of the G36, I would agree. But I am of the experience that it is very solidly built. It's not just a loop sticking out from the receiver. The loop hole is embedded in the receiver (there is a sort of vertical channel in the receiver making up half the loop hole), making the whole loop shorter, and thus less of a lever that will lend itself to being ripped out.
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filler
 
Ummmm IT MUST BE METAL if your going to mount optics
Must be? Why? Metal expands and contracts more than polymer, possibly throwing off the zero more.

Problem is when "grunts" start clamping on sight and taking them off "the polymer will get chewed up or snap off in -45 C weather "

You miss the piont, If you can flex the hand gaurd which your PEQ is attached too then it will shift your lasers point of aim
Agreed. But it is noted that the Germans affix their LLM01 to the side of their optics, making the flexing of the the hand-guard a non-issue, as it is used as a hand-guard, not a mounting area. The B+T solution exists if you want a more rigid hand-guard, but it will expand and contract more with the temperatures.

Oh yes B-T does make handgaurds good point

What if you want to mount some thing other then an HK 40mm
Sometimes things just are not available. What if I want to view flash on my iPhone? I agree that it is important not to have to repurchase grenade launchers if you already have them, so I think that some after-market solution would pop up if this was a problem encountered frequently.

Metal single point sling clip vs polymer mount = broken mount "am talking with normal military use"
If you can find me a report of this happening among the many users of the G36, I would agree. But I am of the experience that it is very solidly built. It's not just a loop sticking out from the receiver. The loop hole is embedded in the receiver (there is a sort of vertical channel in the receiver making up half the loop hole), making the whole loop shorter, and thus less of a lever that will lend itself to being ripped out.

Oh I dont mean it will snap but wear away the poly to the point it will break. I am seeing some major wear on the harden steel ones, so am sure the polymer ones would be trashed in no time
 
Dsiwy said:
Problem is when "grunts" start clamping on sight and taking them off "the polymer will get chewed up or snap off in -45 C weather "
Oh I dont mean it will snap but wear away the poly to the point it will break. I am seeing some major wear on the harden steel ones, so am sure the polymer ones would be trashed in no time
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So the top problem can be solved with some application of B+T or telling the grunts to leave the bloody sights alone. I know B+T is not cheap. but if it's when your life depend on it, like in a military, the leaders don't like it when their people die, so like Lithuania and Latvia, they upgrade their G36's with B+T.

Honestly, I don't know what to tell you about the wearing away of the sling point. You might be right, but I'm sure the locking lugs of the trunion will be flattened out by the time that happens, making the firearm a write-off any-ways. I understand that people are sceptical of polymer, but it's only got to last as long as the trunion does. And if you are running and gunning and placing wear on the sling points, or fiddling with the 3rd party optics enough to bust the polymer rail, you are probably shooting enough that the rifle will be written off before any of that "comfort" stuff wears out.

But as a gas-piston system, I think the G36 does it's job really well.

Yes there were issues where the stroke rod on the G36C's would bend and eat the receiver, that issue has been dealt with though I am surprised that no one brought up the increased complexity of the gas piston system meaning increased points of failure.
 
Dsiwy,

You need to take a deep breath. Relax for a minute. First off please don't compare the standard Bundeswehre rifle to the refined C8 because it's not fair.

Apples to Apples please. An upgraded G36 with a 15" barrel, KAC short rails and flip up irons and the new HK collapsing and folding stock is a bit more fair. The cocking method in the M16FOW is not as gross of a motor skill as the G36. Just because that's what you are used to doesn't mean it's better. The G36 cocking handle is not perfect but has advantages over the M16 FOW. The HK G36 Mags are better than NATO Standard agreement mags. I have to admit that the new Mag Pul mags are pretty good now. Thank God after all these years there are finally some really good mags surfacing for the M16FOW, it's always been a weak point of the system. I'm not sure what this big "Shift of Impact" is that you are talking about. The only time this will happen is when a bipod is used on the G36. The upgraded G36 with have a more rigid metal fore grip.
The issued optics on the G36 are crap, agreed, but they were part of a price point on the whole package of the system and not selected as the ultimate end all be all combat optic.

Most US and Canadian Troops have never used anything but the M16 FOW so they have nothing to compare to properly. I'm not here to degrade anyone's service but serving anywhere doesn't automatically make you an expert on all combat rifles. Being issued a rifle and using it operationally over a period of a year or more might change some troop's opinion on a weapon, not just picking one up and playing for a few minutes in a tent or a few hours on a range on an exchange with another unit.

Still waiting for a company to produce a weapon that can go 24000 rounds with not lube, cleaning or parts breaking in a desert test......

By the way I hate my G36 trigger, way too heavy and creepy....

Rich
 
To improve the AR10/15 has been a 50+ years of on going evolution, going piston is a stop gap measure to the next big/best thing.

I do not really see a major advantage of going piston, when there are so many other successful designs from the ground up already using it. Stoner's DI system was made for a light and accurate shooting platform in mind, going piston really defeats the purpose of this philosophy.

I like how the AR15 is, a light and accurate rifle with very little recoil.
If I want piston, SIG55x, FNC, Galil, K2, G36... are better choices.
 
KevinB said:
Dude -- when a program ends we are doing, I intend on showing pictures of DI guns and Pistons guns and the dirty they generate.

Piston is more recoil, less accuracy, and shorter lifespan of parts.

Don't drink all the cool-aid.
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How can 2 identical caliber rifles, with the same ammo, one a piston and one a DI have different recoil ?
I would think the piston rifle with the extra weight would have LESS recoil because the piston rifle is heavier ? No ?

I admit that YES the piston has more PERCEIVED recoil, but that is because it is snappier due to the extra speed of the action cycling.
That snappieness HAS to be harsher on the parts than the slow booof of gas into the action.

I did the muzzle jump and skateboard slide recoil test and noticed no significant difference between the 2 but I assumed the rearward movement was faster (I had no way of measuring the speed of rearward movement).

I only did a few rds but will repeat the test with many more to see if the rifle travels rearward enough to justify the concept of more recoil in a piston gun.

Perhaps the speed of cycling increases recoil ?
Any physics gurus out there ?

:ar15:
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chopper 1 said:
Perhaps the speed of cycling increases recoil ?
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Yes.

Since the AR is not a runout system the rear of the buffer does indeed impact into the rear of the buffer tube (or recevier extension if your prefer that term). If bolt carrier velocity is higher, then the recoil is higher (all else being equal).

Short Stroke Pistons have two distinct recoil phases - the piston moving rearward and smashing into the carrier, and the rear buffer striking the buffer tube.
 
KevinB said:
Yes.

Since the AR is not a runout system the rear of the buffer does indeed impact into the rear of the buffer tube (or recevier extension if your prefer that term). If bolt carrier velocity is higher, then the recoil is higher (all else being equal).

Short Stroke Pistons have two distinct recoil phases - the piston moving rearward and smashing into the carrier, and the rear buffer striking the buffer tube.
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Then I'm glad I put an Enidine hydraulic buffer in my tube :D
The shorty seems to recoil less now than when it was DI with a normal buffer, and seems to cycle faster (timed accurate double taps are faster).

:ar15:
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HK416/417 (223/308)...G36...SCAR...XCR

There are the choices for piston and were designed as such. Why convert a DI gun to piston when you can purchase one of the above? If affordability of these firearm platforms is the concern, than you should be shooting a cheaper gun anyhow and not worrying about conversions.
 
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