Please help identify this muzzle loader

D

DavidS

Regular
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
Location
Ontario
I'm told it is maybe American made, maybe 1870's. Maybe a "target" gun?

That's all I think I know. Please help if your experience/expertise would tell more. Very heavy octagon barrel. Thanks for your consideration. It probably belongs in a museum somewhere....
The previous owner, now deceased, took this to school in grade 7 for show and tell in downtown Toronto, back in the day.

PXL_20201028_003449796.jpgPXL_20201028_003516925.jpgPXL_20201028_003529468.jpgPXL_20201028_003534092.jpg
 

Attachments

  • PXL_20201028_003534092.jpg
    PXL_20201028_003534092.jpg
    62 KB · Views: 349
  • PXL_20201028_003449796.jpg
    PXL_20201028_003449796.jpg
    62.3 KB · Views: 350
  • PXL_20201028_003516925.jpg
    PXL_20201028_003516925.jpg
    64 KB · Views: 352
  • PXL_20201028_003529468.jpg
    PXL_20201028_003529468.jpg
    52.8 KB · Views: 353
Yes it s target rifle and it could possibly be american of the type they called Federal rifle or picket rifle of the civil war Era. It could also be a swiss or european type target rifle as well
 
Certainly a target rifle with the ; heavy barrel , schuetzen buttplate , peep sight & fancy trigger guard ( looks Europian) .
Google the name on the lock.
 
Schuetzen Rifle.

A Schuetzen is a type of rifle used in European long-range competition. Its German root is from the word Schütze which can be translated as “shooter.” The earliest usage was to denote units of marksmen or sharpshooters back in the days of muzzleloading firearms. Some sources claim that it was once used to describe archers or more specifically crossbowmen.

These rifles are typically heavy and can weigh upwards of 15 pounds. All shooting with these rifles is done standing using a palm rest and butt stock prongs to help the shooter balance the rifle so the weight aids in stability.
 
Swiss target rifle from the 1850s, made in St Gallen (Switzerland) by J.U.Banziger.

This style of Schuetzen rifle is very common for the region of Southern Germany and Switzerland.

I guess the caliber is 10.4 mm
 
Thanks everyone for all of your help. I really appreciate it. I do apologize for the upside-down photos. I did flip them right side up before inserting them here, but apparently that isn't enough.
I think she (the widow) is interested in selling it. Apparently, at 70 she thinks she is done with shooting and has no use for an ancient and very heavy muzzle loader.
Other than the EE, are there people, businesses, or museums that might be interested? Any idea of approximate value?
Details:
Overall length: 48" (inside of butt plate to tip of barrell)
Approximate weight: 17lbs
Barrel length: 33"
Barrel diameter 1-1/8" Octagon
12mm bore (approximate)

The grip appears to be cracked and the wooden pushrod also appears cracked near the handle.

PXL_20201028_233305851.jpgPXL_20201028_233354165.jpgPXL_20201028_233414400.jpgPXL_20201028_233519330.jpg
 

Attachments

  • PXL_20201028_233305851.jpg
    PXL_20201028_233305851.jpg
    59.1 KB · Views: 227
  • PXL_20201028_233354165.jpg
    PXL_20201028_233354165.jpg
    77.7 KB · Views: 226
  • PXL_20201028_233414400.jpg
    PXL_20201028_233414400.jpg
    50.1 KB · Views: 228
  • PXL_20201028_233519330.jpg
    PXL_20201028_233519330.jpg
    42.8 KB · Views: 229
the barrel marking "Acier Fondu" = cast steel

the bore diameter for Swiss rifles is most likely 10.4mm, and the bullet looks like this:
1377437132.jpg


Value?
$1200 and up, depending on overall condition.
The barrel can be(should be) hooked out for cleaning.
 
Last edited:
St Gall is town in Switzerland. Acier fondu means crucible steel. The name could be the smith, or the customer. Very cool gun, Sir! Properly restored it would be a gem.
 
The ram rod is needed at this very moment to make sure that it is NOT loaded. Insert the ramrod as far as it will go. If if makes a sharp metallic sound, then you have reached the end of the bore. If it makes a dull thud, then there is probably a load in there.

You can check it by clamping your fingers around the end and remove it - then hold it up against the barrel. Hopefully it will be the same length as the distance between the muzzle and the ramrod tip. If it is not, then the gun is probably loaded.

There are some pieces missing - the palm rest is one such item, and you may not have the bullet mould and sizing die.

Look up Schuetzen rifles and Coors Challenge on Google. These rifles were shot from a standing position at ranges up to 200 yards. The sport is still very popular in ethnic German-speaking parts of the USA, often with original rifles like this one. These days, the Italian gunmakers Pedersoli make a very fine replica of a similar rifle originally made by Bristlen of Morges in Switzerland.
 
Last edited:
The reason I said to take a picture of the tamp rod on top of the barrel is that most tamp rods bottom out when fully inserted. There is 3/8" to 1/2" of that rod still showing. Hench it might be still loaded with something.
Still a cool old relic.
 
Thanks again for all of your help.
It is definitely an octagon barrel, and likely loaded. Yikes. Dull thud when I drop the rod in, and it stops about an inch from the bottom of the barrel.
I use a modern muzzle loader and am familiar with the basic concepts, but maybe some of you could enlighten me as to the best way to "unload" this gun. I am comfortable with disassembly/reassembly but wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize the potential value for the owner.
I will pass this information on to her and see what she would like to do next. I do appreciate you taking the time to help.
 
DavidS said:
Thanks again for all of your help.
It is definitely an octagon barrel, and likely loaded. Yikes. Dull thud when I drop the rod in, and it stops about an inch from the bottom of the barrel.
I use a modern muzzle loader and am familiar with the basic concepts, but maybe some of you could enlighten me as to the best way to "unload" this gun. I am comfortable with disassembly/reassembly but wouldn't want to do anything to jeopardize the potential value for the owner.
I will pass this information on to her and see what she would like to do next. I do appreciate you taking the time to help.
Click to expand...

You can unload using a standard screw type ball puller. I've seen some fancier compressed air contraptions that you stick on the nipple, that'd do the trick too. After unloading be prepared to fully clean and oil the barrel.
 
Unfortunately the ball puller that came with my modern ML only fits on a ramrod that is about eight inches too short.
The ball puller that is part of the original gun doesn't appear a viable option after trying several times. The metal collar on the "top" end just spins on the wood, and I don't want to damage it with vice grips, etc.
I have a shotgun brush and plenty of oil that will likely work to clean it once I manage to unload it. I may have to resort to welding a screw onto a piece of steel rod....
 
Don't forget to allow for the amount of breach plug when measuring how far down the barrel the ramrod goes. Also my experience with trying to pull bullets with a screw on a wooden ramrod is that more often than not, the tip comes of the rod. If the nipple can be removed, use one of those pneumatic ball dischargers. What I use is a steel rod with a brass screw on tip that is 10 or 20 thou smaller than the bore and a #12 wood screw silver soldered into it. The top of the steel rod has a t shaped handle so that I can tie a rope onto it and the other end to my vice. It usually takes 1 foot or two of slack to get enough momentum to pull the ball loose

cheers mooncoon
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom