I've had the crapy task of shotting a couple of bears were i'm working. Take it form some one how knows, BS is no good. If you go with a 12 gauge you want sugs. Best gun is a 45-70 , kills em dead good. No need to worry about range , problem bears will get close.
Polar bear defense shotgun
- Thread starter Ruffed Grouse
- Start date
Mossberg 500! ar retractable stock with 18'' barrel you can find them used for around 400ish...but in my opinion I would rather have something along the lines of a 300 win mag, 45-70, kind of deal. NEF makes some mean little 45-70 single shot break barrels...saw one at my local shop for 280$ new it had an 18'' barrel and open sights wow that would be my kind of bush gun for the arctic I always love to suggest a lever action 45-70 marlin (my favourite firearm) butt I’m not sure how well that action will work in arctic temperatures.
nwgdutchie
Member
- Location
- Spruce Grove, Alberta
^^I think he thinks she should get a semi auto!!^^
i think that the pump would be good but I would personally get a 45/70, it is lighter, lever action in a proven bear slaughtering round.
I like the idea of the rifled barrel tho because then you can get a Barnes Expanding Sabot in there that will work Very well with the serious expansion.
But still I think a 45/70 or similar caliber in Lever action will do the trick.
Dutchie
I think a lot of people are overestimating the amount of power needed to kill the average polar bear. Many have been killed with as small as a .22-250 or .223 by the Inuit regularly. I know many true Inuit people, and they say a well placed neck shot is just as deadly as a slug. These guys know what they are doing, and I have gotten tons of advice over the years. But, for me, I would take a short double shottie with hammers and ejectors. I can get an awful lot of lead fired quickly with a quick pointing double.
If your company is requiring you to get a shotgun, then that would be my choice. Polar Bears are big (not always), but certainly not indestructible. Don't get caught up with too complicated of a design in an extreme climate. I can tell you from hunting in
-43C, that complicated rifles and shotguns seemed to fail at the worst time. I lost a moose of a lifetime when I heard "click" when I should have heard boom. I had cleaned the rifle but added conventional gun oil (light amount) and the firing pin froze. I did get a moose later that day, but certainly a couple of hundred pounds lighter than the one I missed.
I don't know many simpler designs than a break open single or double barrel shotgun. (with hammers for extra impact inertia for the firing pin). One hit often does the trick on Polar bears. Just talk to the locals that actually hunt them. I have.
If your company is requiring you to get a shotgun, then that would be my choice. Polar Bears are big (not always), but certainly not indestructible. Don't get caught up with too complicated of a design in an extreme climate. I can tell you from hunting in
-43C, that complicated rifles and shotguns seemed to fail at the worst time. I lost a moose of a lifetime when I heard "click" when I should have heard boom. I had cleaned the rifle but added conventional gun oil (light amount) and the firing pin froze. I did get a moose later that day, but certainly a couple of hundred pounds lighter than the one I missed.
I don't know many simpler designs than a break open single or double barrel shotgun. (with hammers for extra impact inertia for the firing pin). One hit often does the trick on Polar bears. Just talk to the locals that actually hunt them. I have.
Yes, me. Get a Remington 870 pump like the others suggested. Auto likely won't be any good to her up there. Baikal is unproven for me and from what I've seen in past years I'm not a huge fan. I've seen springs sprung on the Winchester defender pumps, and sold mine as i couldn't completely trust it so get the 870. Get the 870 Express in a 21" with rifle sights and sight it in. There isn't much margin for error. Also, it's pretty dry up there so don't worry much about rust. Hit the external surfaces with a coat of carnauba car wax if you are worried. Do NOT wax anything internal.
The powers that be are starting to think the Marlin guide guns aren't really the best choice for defense against bears, as they have long range capabilities. IE. it's easier to show a defensive situation if the thing is fairly ineffective at 80 yards. Also, I think for inexperienced people the Marlin is a bit more complex manual of arms than the 870.
As Geologist suggested, she should practice the heck out of it until she can hit most targets without thinking twice. Also, if she's of average height and stature a Knoxx/Black whatever Spec-OPS stock will allow adjustment for length of pull. Mossy has a tang safety which is less productive with pistol gripped stocks.
Carry it mag full, chamber empty and observe ACTS and PROVE at all times. And for God's sake, make sure it's unloaded/locked up when left unattended. Unload the thing BEFORE you call the helicopter in at the end of the day, and leave the slide racked back on the empty gun to give the pilot a measure of confidence.
Thanks everybody for all the comments. Thanks Jay for posting your own thought about your Baikal gun. Sounds like something I'd strongly consider for a dedicated goose gun.
Thanks everybody else. I offered my 870 in case they don't sort this out in time. I also suggested (that if it's allowed) that I got a bunch of responses from northerners and lee enfields kept coming up. Suppose 303 ammo must be pretty much as widely available in the north as 12 ga?
RG
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Thanks everybody else. I offered my 870 in case they don't sort this out in time. I also suggested (that if it's allowed) that I got a bunch of responses from northerners and lee enfields kept coming up. Suppose 303 ammo must be pretty much as widely available in the north as 12 ga?
RG
<><
Sound advice. An absolute necessity.
I've lived in some cold places and machines don't work the same when it's really cold so a semi is probably not the best choice. I think the speed of follow up shots with the pump action shotgun beats out a bolt action rifle.
If the purpose is bear defense then it is ridiculous to have a deterrent round in the chamber or, if the chamber is carried empty, as the first round in the mag. If you surprise a bear in heavy bush and it has a kill or young then that bear will be on you faster than you can think. You may only have time for one shot.
For a self defense shotgun I like the safety placement on the mossberg for that bit of extra speed.
I am a big advocate of deterrents though. No idea about polar bears but they are very effective on black bear and worked somewhat on the one overly curious grizzly a friend and I had to deal with. I say somewhat cause he came back a few hours later but a rubber slug in the side and he finally left for good, or maybe we just left his territory.
If you want a deterrent then proper deterrents are rubber slugs, beanbags or bangers. The place for those is in a side saddle. Since you have to carry buck it can go in the side saddle too. If the situation calls for a non lethal approach then cycle the action back, drop a round from the side saddle into the chamber and your gtg but the magazine needs to have slugs only. Shooting a bear with buck will probably just piss it off but you won't kill it. If it does run away wounded that's not cool either.
Some friends who have been working remote northern locations for years insist on brenneke slugs...from experience shooting angry bears they go down much quicker with the brenneke's.
I carry crack flares as a deterrent but only in a pen launcher. I won't load a deterrent round into my primary gun. Replace your flares at the end of each season as they become unreliable with time. Use the old ones for practice in a safe location but get rid of them.
Here's what I have for work/bush guns.
If it's shotguns only - ie. employer mandated or black bears only.
HP9-1 - thoroughly tested and 100% reliable. Modified and cylinder chokes.
For carrying in the bush, the Marlin 1895 GS 45-70, the typical BC carbine.
Camp rifle for areas with the great bears, BRNO 602 carbine, .375 H&H. CRF Mauser action, easy to strip the bolt down to degrease without tools.
A cheap backup/loaner rifle. LE No.5 - yeah, yeah I know the slip on recoil pad is ghey - but newbie shooters like it.
For ATC carry, the Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull.
If it is a brand new Remington, test it before relying on it.
Whatever firearm, learn to use it. If it HAS to be used, the stress factor will be high. No time to be fiddling around.
Make sure there is a supply of ammunition, don't count on being able to buy locally. Options may be limited.
No harm in having spray, bangers, etc. available.
It is not cold in the arctic year round. But the gun does need to be properly maintained. Some guns are easier to strip and clean than others.
K.I.S.S.
Whatever firearm, learn to use it. If it HAS to be used, the stress factor will be high. No time to be fiddling around.
Make sure there is a supply of ammunition, don't count on being able to buy locally. Options may be limited.
No harm in having spray, bangers, etc. available.
It is not cold in the arctic year round. But the gun does need to be properly maintained. Some guns are easier to strip and clean than others.
K.I.S.S.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A shotgun provides good close range bear protection at a lower price than does a suitable center fire rifle. That being said, I don't get why anyone would limit themselves to $400 for a firearm that is to be used to protect people. That pretty much discounts 85% of the best guns right out of the gate.
Shot has a very specialized use under the bear defense banner. It should only to be used when the use of a solid projectile would endanger others such as in a town or crowded camp site.
Semi-auto shotguns (particularly the new inertia operated guns) are no less reliable than any other types provided they are maintained properly and fed decent ammunition. Ammunition that has been subject to weathering, and shotgun shells suffer badly from this, will tie up any action. The semi-auto has two significant advantages that is not shared by the pump. The most important advantage is that the semi-auto removes any possibility that the shooter might short stroke his manual action gun when under stress. Anyone who has not been surprised by a half ton bear at very close range cannot appreciate the physical effect this has on you. A second albeit lesser advantage of the semi-auto is the solid forend. This provides much better gun handling qualities than does the wobbly forend of the typical pump gun.
Features the bear gun should have are: a 5 shot magazine, adjustable rifle sights, a sling, a fixed butt stock, and an open choke smooth bore barrel between 16" and 20" in length. If the magazine is too long the gun becomes unwieldily. If the barrel is too short, the magazine capacity is restricted and the gun becomes more difficult to shoot well.
Edited to add . . . Very short barrels could lead to you covering the muzzle with your support hand as you fire. And you thought the bear was a problem!
Brenneke slugs are the top choice in my opinion. If they are unavailable I would choose Challengers or Federal. There appears to be little difference in penetration between 3" and 23/4" slugs, and the 3" reduce the magazine capacity. An advantage/disadvantage is that the 12 gauge shotgun can be used to fire cracker shells and rubber bullets. IMHO, cracker shells should not be used a the same gun as lethal ammunition. The crackers can leave partial barrel obstructions, with the predictable results. Rubber bullets are less of a problem, but they are most effective when used in concert with cracker shells. The killing gun should have the slugs and the scare gun should have the noise makers and batons. Needless to say, if these low pressure rounds are going to be used, a pump or other manual action gun is the best choice. Cracker shells are also corrosive, so if you care about the gun, it should be cleaned with hot soapy water immediately after use.
Shot has a very specialized use under the bear defense banner. It should only to be used when the use of a solid projectile would endanger others such as in a town or crowded camp site.
Semi-auto shotguns (particularly the new inertia operated guns) are no less reliable than any other types provided they are maintained properly and fed decent ammunition. Ammunition that has been subject to weathering, and shotgun shells suffer badly from this, will tie up any action. The semi-auto has two significant advantages that is not shared by the pump. The most important advantage is that the semi-auto removes any possibility that the shooter might short stroke his manual action gun when under stress. Anyone who has not been surprised by a half ton bear at very close range cannot appreciate the physical effect this has on you. A second albeit lesser advantage of the semi-auto is the solid forend. This provides much better gun handling qualities than does the wobbly forend of the typical pump gun.
Features the bear gun should have are: a 5 shot magazine, adjustable rifle sights, a sling, a fixed butt stock, and an open choke smooth bore barrel between 16" and 20" in length. If the magazine is too long the gun becomes unwieldily. If the barrel is too short, the magazine capacity is restricted and the gun becomes more difficult to shoot well.
Edited to add . . . Very short barrels could lead to you covering the muzzle with your support hand as you fire. And you thought the bear was a problem!
Brenneke slugs are the top choice in my opinion. If they are unavailable I would choose Challengers or Federal. There appears to be little difference in penetration between 3" and 23/4" slugs, and the 3" reduce the magazine capacity. An advantage/disadvantage is that the 12 gauge shotgun can be used to fire cracker shells and rubber bullets. IMHO, cracker shells should not be used a the same gun as lethal ammunition. The crackers can leave partial barrel obstructions, with the predictable results. Rubber bullets are less of a problem, but they are most effective when used in concert with cracker shells. The killing gun should have the slugs and the scare gun should have the noise makers and batons. Needless to say, if these low pressure rounds are going to be used, a pump or other manual action gun is the best choice. Cracker shells are also corrosive, so if you care about the gun, it should be cleaned with hot soapy water immediately after use.
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PB gun
Are you protecting just your self ? How many other people are you ( the person with the gun ) responsible for and how long could your longest shot be ? In my line of work we can be looking after as few as 1 or as many as 100. We all carry rifles from .375 - .458 we also make sure that the gun person is always with the group. We have a 1 gun person to 12 people ratio, as we have learned the people don't always stay with the group.
If you need to make a 50 - 100 yard shot ( people should never be more than 50 yrds from the gun person ) IMHO a shot gun will not reliably put a bear on the ground with a broad side shot. The goal here is to stop all forward motion of the bear if it can't move it can't hurt anyone.
It's also nice to see that Boomer has got a real rifle now and left the RUM to smaller critters.
Stay Safe
pounder
Are you protecting just your self ? How many other people are you ( the person with the gun ) responsible for and how long could your longest shot be ? In my line of work we can be looking after as few as 1 or as many as 100. We all carry rifles from .375 - .458 we also make sure that the gun person is always with the group. We have a 1 gun person to 12 people ratio, as we have learned the people don't always stay with the group.
If you need to make a 50 - 100 yard shot ( people should never be more than 50 yrds from the gun person ) IMHO a shot gun will not reliably put a bear on the ground with a broad side shot. The goal here is to stop all forward motion of the bear if it can't move it can't hurt anyone.
It's also nice to see that Boomer has got a real rifle now and left the RUM to smaller critters.
Stay Safe
pounder
ipscgraz
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I worked in the cold for about 6 years; carried a Marlin 45-70. The company issued 30 06 bolt guns and short shotguns.
1/ Believe us when we say no lubrication. I had a resounding "Click" when I tried one of my handloads on a chunk of ice in a pressure ridge.
2/ Forget the Buckshot nonsense for bears. Slugs, if you MUST have a shotgun.
3/ Go right to the source and ask why your friend was mandated to find a shotgun? It might have been just from an assumption that buckshot is the answer.
4/ Issue pencil flares with bangers to several people. Do not use anything but pay loads in the defensive firearm.
1/ Believe us when we say no lubrication. I had a resounding "Click" when I tried one of my handloads on a chunk of ice in a pressure ridge.
2/ Forget the Buckshot nonsense for bears. Slugs, if you MUST have a shotgun.
3/ Go right to the source and ask why your friend was mandated to find a shotgun? It might have been just from an assumption that buckshot is the answer.
4/ Issue pencil flares with bangers to several people. Do not use anything but pay loads in the defensive firearm.
I worked 8 years in the Arctic and spent 4 months out of the year in remote field camps.
Budget is not a consideration when your ass is on the line.
There is one choice only:
Remington 870 Marine Magnum. Salt air alont the coasts up there makes anything else rust, you're constantly bringing these things in and out of the cold and camps (i.e rust), the magazine has a higher shell capacity, it's a reliable and well proven pump action (don't stake your life to a semi-auto), synthetic stock that will take tons of abuse.
From having worked with countless folks in the Arctic that never handled firearms the common thread was that none of them could shoot worth a damn. Having a firearm in your hands is near useless if you don't know how to use it.
Budget is not a consideration when your ass is on the line.
There is one choice only:
Remington 870 Marine Magnum. Salt air alont the coasts up there makes anything else rust, you're constantly bringing these things in and out of the cold and camps (i.e rust), the magazine has a higher shell capacity, it's a reliable and well proven pump action (don't stake your life to a semi-auto), synthetic stock that will take tons of abuse.
From having worked with countless folks in the Arctic that never handled firearms the common thread was that none of them could shoot worth a damn. Having a firearm in your hands is near useless if you don't know how to use it.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I agree that an individual needs to be competent with his firearm prior to going afield, but one element that is difficult to train for is how to respond correctly to the stress of a dangerous bear encounter. To this end, I believe that taking the semi-auto off the table is short sighted, particularly if we are talking about the individual who has never killed a big game animal. In a high stress situation, such an individual is prone to short stroking a pump or other manually operated action, where the auto takes reliable cycling out of the equation.
At a time in our history where every major military engagement is carried out with automatic weapons, perpetuating the myth that an autoloader cannot match the reliability of the manually operated firearm fails to measure up. Beyond reliability the self loader has a number of side benefits.
One benefit of the gas gun as opposed to manually operated actions or recoil operated guns, is that recoil is mitigated by the cycling of the action. This reduction of recoil will encourage rather than inhibit the novice to practice with the same ammunition he'll carry in the field. Having said that, having a gun that fits is the first best step towards managing recoil. I might add though that should a recoil operated action, including the newish crop of inertia driven actions be chosen, without sufficient mass behind the gun, the action will not cycle.
But a bigger problem than the choice of action is that some people give more attention to an axe or a canoe paddle than they do the firearm they are relying on to save their lives in the field. This quaint habit of exposing the firearm to all manner of neglect and abuse is troubling. If the follower is rusted to the magazine tube, it doesn't matter what cycles the action. If the magazine tube is dented, it doesn't matter what cycles the action. If the action is allowed to accumulate with all manner of crud and debris, it matters not what cycles the action. A few minutes of daily attention at the end of each day will keep the protection firearm in serviceable condition.
bold for importance.
With someone who might be wary of a firearm, one running larger loads, proper stance is very important.
just the same as you can limp-wrist a pistol, shotgun's can be limp shouldered. ( that i've found)
I taught quite a few people to shoot (not the same as a bear I guess) with both a semi and a pump. Equal amounts of failures with both.
Incorrect stance leads to a lot a FTF and FTE with semi shotguns (i've noticed). A lot of people are afraid of the recoil and shy away from it.
You need to get behind the shogun, and give it something to work against.
The big thing with the pump that I tell people is "be strong with it and when you rack the pump, RACK THE F*CKING PUMP . Do not close it softly, it won't break". Be authoritative with it.
OP, if you friend buys a shotgun, regardless of pump or semi, have them get a few snap caps. During down time, practice loading, unloading, shouldering and working the action. This isn't a replacement for actually going to the range and practicing.
I remember reading an article about attaching a flashlight or even a laser boresighter, choosing a spot on the wall 5,10 or 15 meters away and practicing shouldering the shotgun and aiming at the spot you've chosen.
Muscle memory works.
