Policy of carrying enemy small arms in Canadian Army,

Why didn't the Cdn Army participate in the Gulf war?

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4. There was a lot of talk about deployment and sustainment shortfalls; lack of war stocks, airlift and sealift. We were actually in pretty good shape for ammo and had a huge volume to bring back from CFE when we closed out over the next 2 years. We were integrated with the US for air/sealift planning and execution and could have merged our flow from Europe and our sustainment from Canada as well. I did an exchange tour in the US and was intimately aware of how it could work. This wasn't a real show-stopper like some claimed it to be; it was another excuse.

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The Canadian contribution (in which I served from Nov 90 to Apr 91) was: a field hospital, a heavily plussed-up fighter sqn, AWACs, airlift, an HQ, and five ships' companies (3 vessels, and two turned over their crews mid-war). After the shooting stopped, I went north to Kuwait City with EOD to prove a large sector of the city.

The part of the planning that gives me pause, was how limited our wheeled transport was to sustain any kind of operation. There are lots of ports and airports in Saudi, and the front was not impossible to reach on hardpack, but the well-made highways in between don't mean anything without enough green army trucks, transport companies (err? battalions) and all the clag that moves benzine, bullets, blankets and beans.
 
I believe that the military (army) estimate for the Iraq/Kuwait war was situated to serve the pre-ordained political decision; too problematic and too fraught with danger, so we won't play. But it was OK for all of our allies to go in and do the risky stuff.:sok2

Had we decided to send 4 CMBG it did come with an organic Svc Bn with a significant transport capability, which could have been augmented from resources in Canada if necessary. 4 Svc Bn was scaled to support the brigade in a war with the Russians...so. It also would have been operating under a friendly air situation, unlike the Soviet scenario(the Iraqi air force fled to Iran or was otherwise quickly neutralized) so continuous running to and from rear supply points would have been possible.

In a stroke of very bad timing we had taken our 1980s Chinook helicopter fleet out of service as an economy measure not long before this. We subsequently sold them to the Dutch who continue to operate them. Ironically, when we first got into Afghanistan we were reduced to bumming rides on them from the Dutch.:redface: I argued against taking the Chinooks out of service back then because they were a wonderful asset, but was told to STFU. It was all about tight money for the airforce who were willing to put them on the block to save the CF18s (helicopters are an army asset anyway and will always be a poor cousin for the zoomies).:eek:

The logistics/distribution system for 4 CMBG, had it been deployed, wasn't an insoluble problem. We could have used US APOD/SPOD facilities and added our own stuff as necessary. Everybody else found a way to make it work.

We looked at some other combat alternatives for the army short of sending 4 CMBG. One that I recall was an artillery brigade in support of the US. We had beaucoup M109 SP guns that everybody else was using, we had 155mm ammo coming out of our a$$es in Germany and we had the new HLVW fleet coming on line for ammo haul. The M109s were in good shape and were even fitted with CW protective systems which was a big bogeyman in Iraq.

As mentioned earlier, we had to make assumptions about casualties against the Iraqis, just like everybody else. But there was way too much pre-occupation with relative numbers of tanks, APCs and arty. Numbers don't mean a lot unless equipment is employed by well trained troops with sound tactics and good leadership. Some of us had first hand knowledge of the state of the Syrian and Egyptian armies which were on par with the Iraqis. Much of their $hit was so poorly maintained that it couldn't get to the battlefield. After that it was the state of training of the troops and the ability of commanders to plan and execute combined arms warfare in a dynamic way. They sucked at it.

The Iraqis had their way with hordes of peasants in their war with Iran and were able to grind them up in industrial numbers, including killing a lot of them in the open under tank/APC tracks without expending a lot of ammo. That wasn't the case with their NATO trained and led opposition in Kuwait. The best Arab army, bar none, were the Jordanians; professional, well equipped, well led and well motivated. The others; not so much.

Good on our guys who went over there and did their duty, but the politicians were very determined to minimize our risks, and therefore our representation on the ground. I could go on at length about Brian Mulroney as a war leader, but it would be a very short speech.:rolleyes: It was our shining moment to do what we claimed the army was all about since first deploying a brigade to NATO in 1952, and we baled.:sok2
 
I remember reading the AAR that came through channels from Washington ... someone who read it before me had minuted it with the comment: ‘If the CF is invited to the next war we will be a ‘speed bump’

I believe that much has changed. although we are still a long way behind.
 
The Army still has a professional core and good troops. I've spent many yrs working with them as a training consultant since retirement, and am always pleased to see the levels of motivation and focus.

Political attention and leadership has been a disappointment for decades, as have quite a few of the CDSs. The troops carry on as best they can in spite of it.:cheers:
 
Back to the original question but including the last few exchanges, sometime in the summer of 91, a Duddly Doright Meathead found me and made me sign an ammo declaration. He must have had to get the mess to pack him a sandwich as he compass marched from the guardhouse at St-Hubert down the block and into FMCHQ. I suppose the squirrels have eaten any breadcrumbs he trailed behind so he could find his way back for shift change. Anyways, the declaration was that I had no live IRAQI rounds or ammunition in my possession. I mused about the assorted expended ordnance detritus I'd pocketed and truthfully answered the exact words of the questions. Apparently ... there were concerns that 'someone' had brought home 7.62x39, which wasn't common at the time, which was suspected of being salted into the enemy ammo stores by SF or Kuwaiti Resistance fighters. A repeat performance of a sabotage trick used by the Americans in Vietnam.

So, to remember the spirit and the letter of the DAOD is don't fire anything that HRM the Queen did not issue. It could go kabouey!
 
Dealing with the Oka crisis was an ordeal to say the least. The military and police could certainly have handled whatever came up, politicians not so much.:rolleyes: It was interesting to watch things lurch into action in NDHQ where we were also involved with planning our response Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait that summer.

Lots of what-iffing, contingency planning and trying to out-guess the politicians as usual. I could probably write a thin book about our political response to the Gulf War, which dictated our somewhat ornamental military response.:sok2

I have every now and then reviewed the archival newsreel footage from it. A lot of it was plain old 1930s yellow journalism, that is to say propaganda and hype. Today we call that sort of thing 'narrative based' journalism but propaganda by any other standard.

Difficult to find any footage of the 'rocks at whiskey trench' go around. This is one of the ugly incidents that maybe the Gov't has decided does not fit the kinder gentler narrative of Canada. And I am not picking sides here and I am off topic.
 
I worked with a guy back in the 80’s who was with Regina Rifles in WW2
And he carried an mp40 and Thompson.
He says he really liked the Schmeisser were his exact words.
 
He brought a number of pistols back home after serving in NW Europe and occupation and all were registered with the RCMP - p38, several lugers, Enfields ...

.... and Mauser HScs, Walther PPs and PPKs, etc., etc., all now grandfathered "prohibs". Souvenirs from the defeat of a totalitarian regime now denied by another. "True north, strong and free ....".
 
People wouldn't believe the stuff that guys brought back. My father's generation were pretty much all vets and it seemed like everyone had something, some registered, some not. There was the usual assortment of German pistols as well as Browning HP's and S&Ws from our side. I inherited 3 of these myself.

There were more exotic things as well: Thompsons, STENs, MP40s etc. My favorite was an M3 Grease gun that someone had. I don't know whatever happened to this stuff as people died, moved on or lost interest. Doubtless some went down the outhouse or into the slough or got buried. One of the guys had an unissued condition HP that I wanted, but at some point he got spooked and threw it into the wood stove.
 
People wouldn't believe the stuff that guys brought back. My father's generation were pretty much all vets and it seemed like everyone had something, some registered, some not. There was the usual assortment of German pistols as well as Browning HP's and S&Ws from our side. I inherited 3 of these myself.

There were more exotic things as well: Thompsons, STENs, MP40s etc. My favorite was an M3 Grease gun that someone had. I don't know whatever happened to this stuff as people died, moved on or lost interest. Doubtless some went down the outhouse or into the slough or got buried. One of the guys had an unissued condition HP that I wanted, but at some point he got spooked and threw it into the wood stove.

Vickers K .303 machine guns became liberated from Avro Anson crashed training bombers on Canadian prairies WW2 via the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. Hidden away in barns and farm sheds.
 
Remind me of Bill Mauldin late war work

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.... and Mauser HScs, Walther PPs and PPKs, etc., etc., all now grandfathered "prohibs". Souvenirs from the defeat of a totalitarian regime now denied by another. "True north, strong and free ....".
. Sharps .... connections are very funny ... I recall you mentioning Churchill and that, and this thread, reminded me that father was stationed there in the ‘50’s for almost 3 years .... The Camp RSM was a man named McCracken with a magnificent moustache (I believe my father was OC HQ coy at the time) and I recall having a hell of argument with another young boy who said - correctly as it turned out- that his father was Camp Commandant —— I was adamant that he was wrong and that the commandant was clearly McCracken - and he ran the camp! And Maybe the Canadian Army for all I could see!! Incidently I ran into McCrackens son last year - small world! Anyway I got my Red Ryder BB gun there and also a Lionel train (still have them!) My father had one other ‘souvenir’ which I had completely forgotten until this thread .... it was a beautiful side x side shotgun (as I recall) with very fine checkering and deep black barrels and he would bring it out occasionally and oil it and let me admire it. One day a ‘friend’ of his told him that it was quite valuable and that he knew someone who would pay well for it .... so the gun went .... leaving Ft Churchill with the ‘friend’ never to be seen again .... no money came either ..... I had forgotten that but dad was a very forgiving person ..... and I don’t recall him every losing his temper over that .... although later in Soest he did splurge on himself and purchased a Leica M3 (still have that as well!). Oh well - Christmas memories!
 
Thanks for the memories!

Garrison Commandant when I was there was Col. Strome Galloway, a WWII vet who wrote about his time in Italy as a "D-Day Dodger". Had a copy of his book once .....

Speaking of things "shotgun", we used to shoot Skeet at CFB Churchill on the bay shore as late as midnight as it never really got dark during the summer! That is until the club got a letter from the Commandant suggesting that perhaps 11pm would be late enough. I said, "Well, he didn't order us to stop ....". The response I got was - "When a Col. makes a 'suggestion', you can regard it as carved in stone." We ceased fire at 11pm thereafter.

And as far as who is really in command, the Commandant is a figure head, a father figure. I used to enjoy speaking to Col.'s and Brigadiers as they genuinely seemed to appreciate hearing from a common soldier instead of a bunch of toadying Officers. Any soldier would prefer to stand before God rather than the RSM. Why? Because God would have mercy!

There is no doubt in any soldiers mind as to who runs the Army!
 
Long ago and faraway I was chatting with our RSM about various weapons when he mentioned that the No4 Mk 1* was fairly rare. I was going to say that most of the Long Branch No4s were the * models, but I decided not to. Mere Captains didn't correct the RSM, esp when he'd used one to kill Chinese in Korea.:rey2
 
Long ago and faraway I was chatting with our RSM about various weapons when he mentioned that the No4 Mk 1* was fairly rare. I was going to say that most of the Long Branch No4s were the * models, but I decided not to. Mere Captains didn't correct the RSM, esp when he'd used one to kill Chinese in Korea.:rey2

The early Long Branch No.4 is definitely a rare find , all would be 1941 production, I would think, I would have to do some research when Long Branch changed over to the No.4 Mk 1*, I have never seen a early Long Branch at any of the gun shows I have been to over the years , and they don’t show up on the EE either on CGN ,
 
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