Polish Cavalry

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f_soldaten04

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Ive been pouring over some WW2 books, most of them chronological, and all it said about the Poles is that they charged at tanks with horses, just like most people will tell you. I found this link though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#20th_century:_World_War_II
Obviously Polish cavalry was more than a match for the infantry of the Reich.
What i want to know is if there are any good books, in English, written from the Polish perspective, or at least a more realistic. I find most historians write of the Polish as pushovers, but considering their resources, and the fact that they had to fight the two most powerful powers in Europe at the same time, with no help and no preparation, they might have been the very best. Their geography was hard to defend as well. Thanks in advance
 
Poland was definitely not a pushover. Of all the nations that fell to the Nazis, Poland lasted the longest. The last recorded combat unit to surrender to the Nazis was on October 6th 1939. There were other composite units that lasted longer than that (in fact, some units fought until the end of October), but for whatever reason it's not factored in most histories of that campaign. Poles were still fighting after Germany (and Soviet Russia) declared victory (I believe the Nazis declared victory on 29 September 1939).

As to Polish Cavalry units charging German tank units. Nonsense. Your Wikepedia link lists only one such charge, which was successful. That was on the first day of the invasion. It was probably adhoc and not intended to engage tanks. It wouldn't be the first time an attack is initiated to only find out you're outgunned. One usually has no choice in such a circumstance, but to follow through and hope for the best. Yes, the claims of Polish Cavalry charging tanks was Nazi propaganda. Also, where there were "eyewitness' accounts of such events, those accounts are wrong. What happened on more than one occasion is that Polish Cavalry was trapped/encircled by German panzer units and they had no choice but to try to charge their way out in order to not get slaughtered totally. I saw footage of one such event years ago taken by German military film crews. Can't even remember where or why it was presented, but it was interesting. One thing you learn in the Army is that when ambushed or overwhelmed by enemy force is to attack right into the enemy and fight through to either regroup or get the hell out of there (those who disagree can kiss my @$$).

If you want to read some objective works on Polish history, anything by Norman Davies is probably your best bet. He hasn't written anything specific about September 1939, most is general history, but he has two books dealing with specific periods of Polish history. One is "White Eagle Red Star" dealing with the Russo-Polish War of 1919-20 and the other is "Rising '44" dealing with the Polish uprising.

BTW, f_soldaten04, your observations are quite refreshing in that you look at the big picture and draw unbiased conclusions of that period. Most people wouldn't, they'd just tell Polak jokes and make fun of them. My hat is off to you sir.

Nazdrowie,
sparky




f_soldaten04 said:
Ive been pouring over some WW2 books, most of them chronological, and all it said about the Poles is that they charged at tanks with horses, just like most people will tell you. I found this link though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#20th_century:_World_War_II
Obviously Polish cavalry was more than a match for the infantry of the Reich.
What i want to know is if there are any good books, in English, written from the Polish perspective, or at least a more realistic. I find most historians write of the Polish as pushovers, but considering their resources, and the fact that they had to fight the two most powerful powers in Europe at the same time, with no help and no preparation, they might have been the very best. Their geography was hard to defend as well. Thanks in advance
 
The Poles fought like lions and inflicted very heavy casualties on the Germans.
Those that got out fought with the Allies through to the end of the war and were excellent soldiers.
I recently saw a shadowbox with Polish medals and pictures in a customer's home and found that his father was a Free Polish General who fought throughout the war on the Eastern Front leading his men against the Germans. I knew that Poles served in Italy with the British, but hadn't previously known that the Poles fought alongside the Russians.
 
I'm readind Rising '44 right now and it's a great book. Lot's of touching stories of heart wrenching heroism.
 
IIRC, the Poles were the only ones of all the captured/defeated nations that did not form an actual German unit (SS or otherwise) and fought with the Germans. Yes, individual Poles fought for the Germans, but never as a cohesive unit. I also believe that the last intact (relatively speaking at that time!) unit fighting for the Germans was the Nord (? or something similiar) division left fighting during the fall of Berlin which was comprised of Dutchmen. They were f'ed either way. Fight and die or don't fight and get shot by the Nazis for treason, or if they survived that, get shot by the Dutch for...well treason.

As for the Poles fighting for the Russians. That was, as many old Poles told me, a necessary evil. The general consensus among Poles was to drive the Germans out first and then sort out the Russians.

Many Poles who lived in in parts of Poland during dubya dubya tooo, felt that in fact there were 2 wars waged during the period between 1939-1945, one against the Germans and the second against the Russians. Some old timers will tell you this second war raged on until the 1980's!


I'm sure Sparky can add/correct my words above as required.

Light Infantry
 
Ill have a look at those books, sparky, ive seen the one on the Rising. The Poles were just trapped between a rock and a hard place. Its just unfortunate that there is not more material on the subject, at least in English. Ill keep an eye out though!
 
The actual event was the Polish cavalry charging and wiping out a german infantry unit. Before they could leave the field, german tanks showed up with predictable results. An American reporter saw the aftermath and asked a german what happened. Obviously the german made no mention of the "Master Race" getting its arse kicked, and thats the story that got printed.

As for russians, I can only quote a 18th century Polish proverb. "The russian is a fine fellow, but it is better to hang him!"
 
horses against tanks

Many years ago a good friend of mine[long since gone] told me of his regiment attacking german tanks and destroying many but he was the only survivor of his unit. The germans attacked in the summer and drove with hatches open the riders would get beside a tank and throw a grenade inside but sadly the following tank would gun them down.His horse was killed but he survived to escape to England and ended up in OSS
 
yes, one must admire the polish(being a quarter myself), for being the butt of many good jokes, heroic drinkers and fighting for thier country with conviction, which is more than a lot of european nations can say about WW2, like "which side are we on today" italy or "surrender before they get to the cheese" france...
 
Apart from Russia, the Poles suffered the greatest casualties of WWII and on a per capita basis did indeed suffer the greatest casualties. You might want to read about the pockets of resistance, ie: the Warsaw ghetto resistance, and the clandestine factories producing high quality copies of the British Sten gun to fight on.
 
I think you will enjoy For Your Freedom And Ours. When I get home later tonight (or tomorrow) I'll dig it up and post the author and publisher. It is principally about the Poles who flew with the RAF, but also gives and overview of the contributions of other Free Polish forces and the Home Army (the resistance in occupied Poland) and then tells how the Western Allies, (really meaning Great Britain and the U.S., since they had all the clout) let Stalin have his way with all matters Polish. It is some consolation to see how the R.A.F., which didn't think much of the Polish airmen initially, later actually stood up to its own government somewhat on behalf of its Poles when they were getting shafted.

Here's the rest of the details. The book is subtitled "The Kosciuszko Squadron The Forgotten Heroes of World War II"
(Sorry Poles, I don't have a Polish keyboard to put the accent over the first "s" in Kosciuszko.) The authors are Lynne Olson & Stanley Cloud.

It was first published in the U.S. by Alfred A. Knopf (a division of Random House) under the title A Question of Honor so a Library of Congress catalogue number must exist, but I don't have it.

My copy is published by Arrow Books, 2004. They are part of the Random House Group Limited, 20 Vauxhall Bridge Road, London, SW1V 2SA. www.randomhouse.co.uk

(It was first published in the U.K. in 2003 by William Heinemann)
 
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Damn, how did I miss this post....

If you would like to read about what happened to my old country and how badly it got screwed by the so called allience, read on.

the following is by Mieczyslaw Kasprzyk:

THE HISTORY OF POLAND: THE SECOND WORLD WAR
Invasion:
On September 1st., 1939, 1.8 million German troops invaded Poland on three fronts; East Prussia in the north, Germany in the west and Slovakia in the south. They had 2600 tanks against the Polish 180, and over 2000 aircraft against the Polish 420. Their "Blitzkrieg" tactics, coupled with their bombing of defenceless towns and refugees, had never been seen before and, at first, caught the Poles off-guard. By September 14th. Warsaw was surrounded. At this stage the poles reacted, holding off the Germans at Kutno and regrouping behind the Wisla (Vistula) and Bzura rivers. Although Britain and France declared war on September 3rd. the Poles received no help - yet it had been agreed that the Poles should fight a defensive campaign for only 2 weeks during which time the Allies could get their forces together and attack from the west.

There are many "myths" that surround the September Campaign; the fictional Polish cavalry charges against German tanks (actually reported by the Italian press and used as propaganda by the Germans), the alleged destruction of the Polish Air Force on the ground, or claims that Polish armour failed to achieve any success against the invaders. In reality, and despite the fact that Poland was only just beginning to modernise her armed forces and had been forced (by Britain and France) to delay mobilisation (which they claimed might be interpreted as aggressive behaviour) so that, at the time of invasion, only about one-third of her total potential manpower was mobilised, Polish forces ensured that the September campaign was no "walk-over". The Wehrmacht had so under-rated Polish anti-tank capabilities (the Polish-designed anti-tank gun was one of the best in the world at that time) that they had gone into action with white "balkankreuz", or crosses, prominently displayed in eight locations; these crosses made excellent aiming points for Polish gun-sights and forced the Germans to radically rethink their national insignia, initially overpainting them in yellow and then, for their later campaigns, adopting the modified "balkankreuz" similar to that used by the Luftwaffe. The recently-designed 7TP "czolg lekki", or light tank, the first in the world to be designed with a diesel engine, proved to be superior to German tanks of the same class (the PzKpfw I and II) inflicting serious damage to the German forces, limited only by the fact that they were not used in concentrated groups. They were absorbed by the Germans into their own Panzer divisions at the end of the campaign.

On September 17th. Soviet forces invaded from the east. Warsaw surrendered 2 weeks later, the garrison on the Hel peninsula surrendered on October 2nd., and the Polesie Defence group, after fighting on two fronts against both German and Soviet forces, surrendered on October 5th. The Poles had held on for twice as long as had been expected and had done more damage to the Germans than the combined British and French forces were to do in 1940. The Germans lost 50,000 men, 697 planes and 993 tanks and armoured cars.

Thousands of soldiers and civilians managed to escape to France and Britain whilst many more went "underground" . A government-in-exile was formed with Wladyslaw Raczkiewicz as President and General Wladyslaw Sikorski as Prime Minister.

The Fourth Partition:
Under the German-Soviet pact Poland was divided; the Soviets took, and absorbed into the Soviet Union, the eastern half (Byelorussia and the West Ukraine), the Germans incorporated Pomerania, Posnania and Silesia into the Reich whilst the rest was designated as the General-Gouvernement (a colony ruled from Krakow by Hitler's friend, Hans Frank).

In the Soviet zone 1.5 million Poles (including women and children) were transported to labour camps in Siberia and other areas. Many thousands of captured Polish officers were shot at several secret forest sites; the first to be discovered being Katyn, near Smolensk.

The Germans declared their intention of eliminating the Polish race (a task to be completed by 1975) alongside the Jews. This process of elimination, the "Holocaust", was carried out systematically. All members of the "intelligentsia" were hunted down in order to destroy Polish culture and leadership (many were originally exterminated at Oswiencim - better known by its German name, Auschwitz). Secret universities and schools, a "Cultural Underground", were formed (the penalty for belonging to one was death). In the General-Gouvernement there were about 100,000 secondary school pupils and over 10,000 university students involved in secret education.

The Polish Jews were herded into Ghettos where they were slowly starved and cruelly offered hopes of survival but, in fact, ended up being shot or gassed. In the end they were transported, alongside non-Jewish Poles, Gypsies and Soviet POWs, to extermination camps such as Auschwitz and Treblinka; at Auschwitz over 4 million were exterminated. 2000 concentration camps were built in Poland, which became the major site of the extermination programme, since this was where most of the intended victims lived.

Many non-Jewish Poles were either transported to Germany and used as slave labour or simply executed. In the cities the Germans would round-up and kill indiscriminately as a punishment for any underground or anti-German or pro-Jewish activity. In the countryside they kept prominent citizens as hostages who would be executed if necessary. Sometimes they liquidated whole villages; at least 300 villages were destroyed. Hans Frank said, "If I wanted to put up a poster for every seven Poles shot, the forests of Poland would not suffice to produce the paper for such posters."

Despite such horror the Poles refused to give in or cooperate (there were no Polish collaborators as in other occupied countries). The Polish Underground or AK (Armia Krajowa or Home Army) was the largest in Europe with 400,000 men. The Jewish resistance movement was set up separately because of the problem of being imprisoned within the ghettos. Both these organisations caused great damage to the Nazi military machine. Many non-Jewish Poles saved the lives of thousands of Jews despite the fact that the penalty, if caught, was death (in fact, Poland was the only occupied nation where aiding Jews was punishable by death).

Fighting on all Fronts:
The Polish Army, Navy and Air Force reorganised abroad and continued to fight the Germans. In fact they have the distinction of being the only nation to fight on every front in the War. In 1940 they fought in France, in the Norwegian campaign they earned a reputation for bravery at Narvik, and in Africa the Carpathian Brigade fought at Tobruk.

Polish Squadrons played an important role in the Battle of Britain, accounting for 12% of all German aircraft destroyed at the cost of 33 lives. By the end of the war they had flown a total of 86,527 sorties, lost 1669 men and shot down 500 German planes and 190 V1 rockets.

The Polish Navy, which had escaped intact, consisted of 60 vessels, including 2 cruisers, 9 destroyers and 5 submarines ( one of which was the famous "Orzel") which were involved in 665 actions at sea. The first German ship sunk in the war was sunk by Polish ships. The Navy also took part in the D-Day landings.

When the Soviet Union was attacked by Germany, in June 1941, Polish POWs were released from prison camps and set up an army headed by General Anders. Many civilians were taken under the protection of this army which was allowed to make its way to Persia (modern-day Iran) and then on to Egypt. This army, the Polish Second Corps, fought with distinction in Italy, their most notable victory being that at Monte Cassino, in May 1944, and which opened up the road to Rome for the Allies as a whole. One of the "heroes" of the Polish Second Corps was Wojtek, a brown bear adopted in Iran as their mascot; at Monte Cassino Wojtek actually helped in the fighting by carrying ammunition for the guns. He died, famous and well-loved, in Edinburgh Zoo in 1964, aged 22.

All the Polish forces took part in the Allied invasion of Europe and liberation of France, playing a particularly crucial role in the significant Battle of the Falaise Gap. The Polish Parachute Brigade took part in the disastrous Battle of Arnhem in Holland. In 1945, the Poles captured the German port of Wilhelmshaven.

In 1943 a division of Polish soldiers was formed in Russia under Soviet control and fought on the Eastern Front. They fought loyally alongside the Soviet troops, despite the suffering they had experienced in Soviet hands, and they distinguished themselves in breaking through the last German lines of defence, the "Pomeranian Rampart", in the fighting in Saxony and in the capture of Berlin.

----- end of part 1 -----
 
part 2 of the above text.... the board won't let me post above 10,000 characters.



The "Home Army", under the command of General Stefan Roweki (code-named "Grot"), and after his capture in 1943 (he was later murdered), by General Tadeusz Komorowski (code-named "Bor"), fought a very varied war; at times in open combat in brigade or division strength, at times involved in sabotage, often acting as execution squads eliminating German officials, and often fighting a psychological campaign against German military and civilians. It was a costly war since the Germans always took reprisals.

The Intelligence Service of the Home Army captured and sent parts of the V1 to London for examination, providing information on German military movements (giving advanced warning of the German plan to invade Russia), and gave the RAF full information about Peenemunde, where the Germans were producing V2 rockets.

Betrayal:
The crime of Katyn was discovered in 1943 and created a rift in Polish-Soviet relations. From now on the Home Army was attacked by Soviet propaganda as collaborating with the Germans and being called on to rise against the Germans once the Red Army reached the outskirts of Warsaw.

Secretly, at Teheran, the British and Americans agreed to letting the Russians profit from their invasion of Poland in 1939 and allowing them to keep the lands that had been absorbed. The "accidental" death of General Sikorski at this time helped keep protests at a minimum.

When the Russians crossed into Poland the Home Army cooperated in the fight against the Germans and contributed greatly to the victories at Lwow, Wilno and Lublin only to find themselves surrounded and disarmed by their "comrades-in-arms" and deported to labour camps in Siberia.

On August 1, 1944, with the Russian forces on the right bank of the Vistula, the Home Army rose in Warsaw; the Warsaw Rising. Heroic street-fighting involving the whole population, using the sewers as lines of communication and escape, under heavy bombardment, lasted for 63 days. The city was completely destroyed. Not only did the Russians cease to advance but they also refused to allow Allied planes to land on Russian airfields after dropping supplies. After surrendering many civilians and soldiers were executed or sent to concentration camps to be exterminated and Warsaw was razed to the ground.


The defeat in Warsaw destroyed the political and military institutions of the Polish underground and left the way open for a Soviet take-over.

With the liberation of Lublin in July 1944 a Russian-sponsored Polish Committee for National Liberation (a Communist Government in all but name) had been set up and the British had put great pressure, mostly unsuccessful, on the Government-in-exile to accept this status quo. At Yalta, in February 1945, the Allies put Poland within the Russian zone of influence in a post-war Europe. To most Poles the meaning of these two events was perfectly clear; Poland had been betrayed. At one stage the Polish Army, still fighting in Italy and Germany, was prepared to withdraw from the front lines in protest; after all, they were supposed to be fighting for Polish liberation. It is a reflection on Polish honour that no such withdrawal took place since it could leave large gaps in the front lines and so was considered too dangerous for their Allied comrades-in-arms.

The war ended on May 8th, 1945.

The Cost:
The Poles are the people who really lost the war.

Over half a million fighting men and women, and 6 million civilians (or 22% of the total population) died. About 50% of these were Polish Christians and 50% were Polish Jews. Approximately 5,384,000, or 89.9% of Polish war losses (Jews and Gentiles) were the victims of prisons, death camps, raids, executions, annihilation of ghettos, epidemics, starvation, excessive work and ill treatment. So many Poles were sent to concentration camps that virtually every family had someone close to them who had been tortured or murdered there.

There were one million war orphans and over half a million invalids.

The country lost 38% of its national assets (Britain lost 0.8%, France lost 1.5%). Half the country was swallowed up by the Soviet Union including the two great cultural centres of Lwow and Wilno.

Many Poles could not return to the country for which they has fought because they belonged to the "wrong" political group or came from eastern Poland and had thus become Soviet citizens. Others were arrested, tortured and imprisoned by the Soviet authorities for belonging to the Home Army.

Although "victors" they were not allowed to partake in victory celebrations.

Through fighting "For Our Freedom and Yours" they had exchanged one master for another and were, for many years to come, treated as "the enemy" by the very Allies who had betrayed them at Teheran and Yalta.
 
ringo said:
Apart from Russia, the Poles suffered the greatest casualties of WWII and on a per capita basis did indeed suffer the greatest casualties. You might want to read about the pockets of resistance, ie: the Warsaw ghetto resistance, and the clandestine factories producing high quality copies of the British Sten gun to fight on.

This is so. Roughly 1 out of 4 were killed: 5,800,000
Poland was the only occupied nation to have no collaborationist government.

Polska Walcząca: http://www.warsawuprising.com/

Units of the RCAF were involved in supplying the Warsaw Uprising (as well as other allied air forces) In the cemetary at Bródno, in Warszawa I saw a memorial raised by the Poles specifically for RCAF crews.
 
History is amazing, isn't it.

When I took history in high school here in Canada, the second world war was summed up like this: (and I am not being disrespectful)

Germany bad, allies good, US wins the war for everybody, only the Jews suffered in the holocaust, who's Poland ??

So anyhow I hope the 2 posts I made above will let you know a little more about my little countries history and bad luck.

cheers,

Alex
 
Thanks Olek!

I have always found Poles to be friendly warm people (once you get to know them) with a great wry sense of humour, and of course great folks to drink with.:)
 
Wow, thanks olek_Z_bc. Its true what you say about History. After all it is written by the victors, not the losers. What shocks me is how persistent the Poles were, in relation to other nations spawned during the Treaty of Versailles. they have been very marginalized, especially their contribution so far as actual combat after the fall of poland is concerned. The western allies continued to be quite cowwardly in the face of Soviet pressure. The war, I belive, was simply who could get to Berlin first, and the Allies did not mind dashing the hopes of millions of people in order to achieve this.
 
Serbs were royally screwed in that war and also when clinton was trying to save "face" over monica. History is a funny thing.
 
Nice posts Olek.

I was fortunate enough to tour Poland this September for the first time. An incredible country. I've been around Europe, but I must say I was taken aback at seeing first-hand, Auchwitz/Birkinau, as well as the many, many monuments and historic sites, like the former Warsaw ghetto.

All 4 of my wifes grandparents spent the war in POW and/or forced labour camps in Germany (two of them met there). All 4 families lost multiple member of their immidiate families with brothers/sons being hung as general reprisals, or shot due to a lack of desire of the Nazi's to move or release their Polish slaves as the Russians closed in.

One grandfather was an army officer prior to the war, was captured and escaped twice, and finished the war as a member of the AK, he was buried with full honours a few years ago.

Her other grandfather told me of trying to escape east to get away from the German invasion troops, only to discover that the Russians were invading from that direction. I cannot imagine what a feeling of dispear that would draw.

As for Polands holding up of the Germans for as long as they did, we as Canadians can sometimes take the distances in Central Europe for granted. In Wroclaw (formerly Breslau), my wife's hometown, you are 3 hours or less from Berlin, Prague, Vienna, and Warsaw. Poland is a big country for Europe, but for Canucks, the distances are very small. Experiencing this really gave me pause as to the efforts to stop a blitzkreig.

I noticed one pamphlet in Warsaw which compared the USA's total war dead, of ~350,000 (if I'm wrong, I apologize), to the 800,000 war dead of Warsaw (the CITY alone!)

No country saw the level of devastation in WWII like Poland, no country was as brutally sold out as Poland in the following peace.
 
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