Polish "Radom" VIS 35 pistol - lots of pictures

The repro stock and holsters were not made by Radom. There is an outfit in Poznan that makes and rents equipment for the movie industry that was making this stuff.

I think you should search under Mundury Historyczne if anythink comes from Poznac with a good web page that is them. Just ask them they are reasonable with their prices
 
AdamP said:
My father has one of these as well. His is missing the right side grip panel (has a bubba homemade replacement that was put on before he bought it) and the finish is not nearly as nice as yours. He was thinking about getting it refinished as the originality is already mostly gone.

Anyone have a source for replacement parts (grips, mags, etc) ?

Nice score! I'm definitely jealous of that one.

Adam
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I would buy a set of repro grips off ebay and leave it as is. Refinishing it certainly wouldnt help value.
 
ArtyMan said:
I would buy a set of repro grips off ebay and leave it as is. Refinishing it certainly wouldnt help value.
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I don't know, it's pretty rough. The local gunsmith here reblued my US Army 1911 (circa 1918) for me.... When I got it it was all correct but the finish had been chemically stripped from the slide and frame, leaving them bare but the small parts had a little bit of bluing left on them. He did an incredible job on the gun, working all the dings and scratches out of the slide and frame without wearing off any numbering or lettering. I figured it was already worth as little as it could be without having aftermarket sights or other parts installed on it. Now it's restored to its former glory and looks like a brand new gun.

There are still much nicer examples of these pistols than my dad's (yours included). He's just kinda toying with the idea. Maybe I'll get some pictures of it and post them to see what you guys think.

Adam
 
Here is a repost of a previous post I made of the varients:

Here are some pics showing the differences in the VIS pistols:

September 1939 VIS:
This one was hastily put together during the Nazi invasion. The barrel does not match, but it is Polish marked - this is common among the "blitzkreig VIS". You can also see that it is missing the firing proof and inspection marks. The firing proof would go by the de-cocking lever, and the inspection proof would be on the triggerguard - in 1939 it would be a D over a 2 in an oval. I'm still to aquire a prewar VIS.

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Nazi type I VIS:
This VIS is the early one made by the Nazi's. It was put together with remaining parts from the Radom factory, and has a cut for the shoulder stock. It also has a bunch of Polish manufacturing marks. The barrel is Waa623, so it was made in Steyr where the pistol was put together.

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Nazi type II VIS:
This is the most common VIS varient. It has no cut for the shoulder stock, and is otherwise identical to the Type I. The finish is not as nice as the above VIS pistols.

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Nazi type III VIS:
This is the last varient. Tooling marks promenant and the finish is poor. The takedown lever is omitted, and the decocker double as a takedown lever. This is why you will notice the slide noches are in different places. Grip eschutons deleted, that is the reason for the larger grip screws. The grips are brown to denote the difference.

DSC02643.jpg

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Some argue that there is a 4th varient, that is purely made at Steyr after the Radom plant was moved there. It does not show FB Radom on the slide, and simply is stamped BNZ. It would also show a phosphated finish. These also have wooden grips. This is a varient I am yet to aquire.

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Here are some pics of the shoulder stock:
DSC02646.jpg

DSC02647.jpg




If you are interested in the full post, look here:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=606963

More info on VIS and holsters.
 
As for the Waa's:

Waa77 is Radom: major parts will have this number on Grade I to III VIS pistols. Parts were made at Radom and shipped to Steyr for assembly.
Waa623 is Steyr: you will see this on the barrel (all barrels were made at Steyr so the Poles don't steal them and re-assemble for the partisans). You will also see this on the slide, along with the Eagle over swastika firing proof to denote acceptance.

Late grade III (BNZ VIS) would only have Waa623 markings. In late 44 the machinery was moved from Radom to Steyr as the Russians were advancing. In early 45 parts were produced in Steyr, therefore no more Waa77 markings.
 
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murat said:
If anyone is intrested in a group buy about $700 a pistol. 100 pistols minimum order Radom factory will make them
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I am assuming this would be for new production ones? Will they have the Polish eagle on them like in the last reproduction batch?

$700? Put me down for one! I can probably find a couple more buyers as well! Is that plus import?

Any more info on the MAG?
 
Stoggie thanks for the GREAT information! :cheers: From your info supplied I can summise that I have a Type II Nazi piece.

I took the pistol to the range yesterday and I have extreamly happy. The decocker works with no safety issues, and the pistol is very, very accurate. Unfortunately I had no camera with me, but it will not be the last time I shoot it :p
 
ArtyMan said:
Stoggie thanks for the GREAT information! :cheers: From your info supplied I can summise that I have a Type II Nazi piece.

I took the pistol to the range yesterday and I have extreamly happy. The decocker works with no safety issues, and the pistol is very, very accurate. Unfortunately I had no camera with me, but it will not be the last time I shoot it :p
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Yup, type II. Some would call it a Type II, Sub-Type II. This is because mine (sub-type I) has the P-35(p) German designation under the FB Radom VIS marking, where as yours does not. This was omitted at some point early on in VIS manufacture.

EDIT: Actually, I will have to double check my books, as it may be a sub-type III. You will also notice the Waa are different. They went from E/Waa77 and E/623 to E/77 and E/Waa623. But now we're just getting picky :)
 
stoggie said:
Yup, type II. Some would call it a Type II, Sub-Type II. This is because mine (sub-type I) has the P-35(p) German designation under the FB Radom VIS marking, where as yours does not. This was omitted at some point early on in VIS manufacture.
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So there are actually quite a few sub variations of the above mentioned 4 grades?
 
Styer took control of Radom and later in the war moved the factory and parts to Austria, which resulted in a 5th variation with wooden grips.

They are neat pistols and very accurate.

There are original stocks out there but I have only seen 1-2 ever for sale and they were at the $800-1000 mark. I have only seen one repro stock and even it was $400.

Neat pistols.
 
There are no original stocks out there. Apparently there are only 3 in existance that the world knows about. One is in the WP museum in Warsaw, one is in Russia somewhere, and the last one is in the hands of a private collector. These are priceless. These were intended for the cavalry, and never issued because they were clumbsy to use. Whatever stock that was left at the factory was burned to prevent the Germans from using them.

There were a couple of repro batches made. One is an exact replica copied from the one in the WP museum. These were offered with the repro VIS batch back in the 90's, and extra stocks (but limited) were made for collectors. I have one of these, and these are the $1000 repros.

There was another batch made somewhere, that are close to the original. These ones are valued less, but are still expensive as repros.
 
stoggie said:
Some argue that there is a 4th varient, that is purely made at Steyr after the Radom plant was moved there. It does not show FB Radom on the slide, and simply is stamped BNZ. It would also show a phosphated finish. These also have wooden grips. This is a varient I am yet to aquire.

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Have you ever seen any of these pistols? Seems to me almost like a kriegsmodell kar98.

Also, do you have any info on who these were issued to? The Whermacht as a general issue pistol? SS? Kriegsmarine? Police?
 
I have not personally seen one of these, but I have seen 4 or 5 for sale on the internet over the years. They are the scarcest varient.

There are only records showing procurement by the Heer and the Kreigsmarine. Apparently there was an SS contract as well, the barrels have a rune S on the barrel, but this is what I have read on the internet.
http://cosmolineandrust.########.com/2006/11/radom-vis-wz35-last-horse-pistol.html
My Nazi type I has one of these runes as well. It was reportedly liberated off a higher up SS officer in Normandy by an infantry private from Edmonton (LER or PPCLI?). It was taken as a souvenier with holster.

Here is where some may chime in to correct me, as this is only going off what I have read on the internet: The SS had a tough time procuring arms on their own, and were last in line for contracts. Therefore, most of their procurement was done through the Heer. The Heer would not issue any non-German made pistol to their troops (only P-38 or Luger), therefore leaving the Heer contract VIS pistols to the SS. Most VIS pistols were issued to the SS for this reason.

There were some Kreigsmarine contracts, and there are Kreigsmarine marked VIS pistols out there. I have not heard of Luftwaffe contracts or markings on any VIS pistols.
 
An interesting fact, is that most folks beleive the caming action on the VIS's barrel was copied from the Belgian HP. This is not the case. The VIS was in development from 1929, and the VIS as a whole was patented in 1931.
 
Again, outstanding information Stoggie, really appreciate it :cheers: I was looking at the pistol and comparing it to the multitude of Inglis HP's I have been issued aswell as my 1911's. The VIS seems to be almost a mix of the best features of the two. The more I look at the pistol in fine detail the more I appreciate it. Now I need a German marked HP :p
 
stoggie said:
There are only records showing procurement by the Heer and the Kreigsmarine. Apparently there was an SS contract as well, the barrels have a rune S on the barrel, but this is what I have read on the internet.

My Nazi type I has one of these runes as well. It was reportedly liberated off a higher up SS officer in Normandy by an infantry private from Edmonton (LER or PPCLI?). It was taken as a souvenier with holster.

Here is where some may chime in to correct me, as this is only going off what I have read on the internet: The SS had a tough time procuring arms on their own, and were last in line for contracts. Therefore, most of their procurement was done through the Heer. The Heer would not issue any non-German made pistol to their troops (only P-38 or Luger), therefore leaving the Heer contract VIS pistols to the SS. Most VIS pistols were issued to the SS for this reason.

There were some Kreigsmarine contracts, and there are Kreigsmarine marked VIS pistols out there. I have not heard of Luftwaffe contracts or markings on any VIS pistols.
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Very interesting post I've been following since start, I'll chime in at this point to add a bit of info I've acquired with German Military Pistols over the last 15-20 yrs...

Stoogie, a few questions / comments:

SS contracted & procured pistols are nowadays established by the serial number ranges, SS contract Walther PPks are a prime example of this research / documentation. There was no such things as marking weapons with SS runes !! This is pure fantasy & forgery !! Numerous fakes exists out there & all those sellers have a good story to go with it...Some Reworked K98s have been seen with runes & a lot of discussions are going on these (real or fakes) but I'm no expert in that area (Joe N where are you ??) Remember that the main market ($$$) is USA so a lot of fakes / boosted & forged weapons are on the markets as they bring VG money (Navy Lugers are a prime target...)

Please post PICS of your VIS Type I with ''SS Rune'' it will surely add to the discussion...

...``liberated from an SS officer``....I do have great respect for Veterans but stories like this, if not documented (I mean proof like a signed statement...or like in the USA a Capture Document) are pure hogwash in my book. `` Buy the pistol not the story`!! How many Lugers did I bought that were captured off a General & so on....No proof = no story !!

''Heer would not issue other than P38s & Lugers'' ?? How about Mauser's 1934& HSCs, Walther PPs & PPks, Sauers 38h, etc Even non German produced sidearms were proofed by Military Inspectors (Waffenampts as we call these proofs) French Unique & Browning High Powers are good examples...

KM procured VIS 35 pistols are all Type I, NordSee Station. Most are marked on the frontstrap but documented un-marked pistols exists. Seen 3-4 for of these & had one in the 28xx range (if I remember well) One very well respected Collector out in Western Canada has a fine KM marked VIS 35 pistol & there are probably more out there...

Lastly on that ``bnz``...a VERY sought after last production (Steyr) pistol. Are there any in Canada ?? Hard to say (never seen any)....We're probably a few Collectors out there willing to pay top dollar (I mean big numbers) to acquire one...I predict that if one ever shows up in the EE it will be well past the 1.5 K mark...

I'll stop for now, just wanted to add a little to this tread as it's a very interesting one on a GREAT pistol the VIS 35 is. On a last note, while testing original German pistols a few years back the RADOM was the only 9 mm I was able to ``triple-tap`` in close-up defensive type shooting. Most pistols (& IPSC shooters) will ``dble-tap`` but with the RADOM, thanks to a great design & steel frame, you can easily ``triple-tap``....

Mk
 
Kidvett,

Thanks for the info, very interesting to hear about the "Runes". The only thing I know about SS weapons are that were far fewer made then there are floating around today :p and more often then not they are faked. Not saying Stoggies pistol is fake, and I would be VERY interested to see pictures of the pistol.

Kidvett please post some pics of your VIS pistol(s). Im very interested to see more examples of these pistols!

:cheers:
 
Kidvett, I don't claim to know very much about German pistols. Again, just what I read about the VIS on other forums and books. I have been a student of the VIS for some years now. Its hard to beleive anything you read these days unless it comes from an experienced collector. As for the Waa's, I know other pistols have these marking, however they do not denote branch of service, only that they were accepted and where.

According to "The Radom VIS Pistol" by Robert Berger, production at Radom during WWII is as follows:
1940 - 12,239
1941 - 29,997
1942 - 51,000
1943 - 140,000
1944 - 65,000

Heer procurement records only indicate 22,474 in 1941; and 51,450 in 1942. KM VIS from my reading are all very early, many with the Polish eagle still on them. I know of a VIS collector in AB that has one, I am yet to meet with him to see his collection, but if I recall properly, it has the typical Nazi roll stamp and no letter prefix. The 7,000 unaccounted VIS pistols I have read that they most likely were SS procured. Again, all internet speak, I have no refrences to back it up.

I wish I kept a record of where I read on the SS and their procurement practices. It was on a forum from a member who seemed to be a subject matter expert on procurement, and why there was no markings on ordanance to denote SS, as there was for Heer, KM and Luft. It was definately an interesting read.

Here is a pic of my "rune." Above I posted a link with another. This VIS is in the C block. I have seen a post on another forum with a C block VIS with the same marking including the R. I never paid any attention to it until I saw pics of the other C block with the same markings.
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I never bought the pistol or the story. Its just information that came along with it, take it for what its worth.
 
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