I think Imperial Luger is saying with Canadian soldiers serving at these Kriegsmarine posts, surely some of them would have brought back home some KM Radoms.... However, no known examples have been shown in Canada.
-Steve
Polish Radom Vis wz 35 Navy
- Thread starter mark44
- Start date
I think Imperial Luger is saying with Canadian soldiers serving at these Kriegsmarine posts, surely some of them would have brought back home some KM Radoms.... However, no known examples have been shown in Canada.
-Steve
Not to be argumentative but this is a thread about being accurate. Gdansk is a Polish city. Imperial Luger might be meaning Danzig which was in East Prussia in WW2 and although I'm no expert on the Kriegsmarine, would more likely be the base for German U-boats.
In any case no Canadian soldiers would have been doing occupation duties in either city. Possibly Kiel and Wilhelmshaven though the latter was occupied by the 1st Polish Armoured Division. Channel Ports? Who knows where KM marked Radoms where found - any documentation as to sources?
Imperial luger
Regular
Fugawi--the free city of Danzig and nowadays Gdansk is one and the same,take a look at a map,Gdansk is on the baltic coast. Gdansk which was declared the free city of Danzig from1920 to 1939 came about as a result of Woodrow Wilsons 14 points after WW#1 which allowed Poland free access to the sea while respecting the German population of the day, the German population wanted the city annexed and Hitler done so after the invasion of Poland in 1939. If you find this info is not accurate then please correct me as this is an discussion not an argument.By close proximity I should have stated same country-my error. It is the Russians if any that ruled the East
To clear things up, I am referring to Canadian vets post war at the various dockyards,not necessarily Gdansk/Danzig pistols move along with the crews whom were also replaced and or redeployed.
Documentation as to where a pistol was picked up by our Canadian vets is a tough one, many years and many stories later muddy the waters-buy the pistol not the story unless provenance can be proved.
Also it is tough to find out exactly where Canadian forces served as we were lumped in with the British in most cases, some of our men did spend time at the once held German occupied ports as we came in from the North through Holland and yes primarily German Ports.
My whole point in this discussion is basically to say that with Canadian vets serving during occupation periods at various German held ports(France included) post WW#2 it strikes me as bieng strange that very few known examples of KM marked Radom pistols have turned up in other countries besides the USA.
We have multiple examples of KM marked Mausers pistols but few Radoms, our home grown Canadian collectors do not need to take a back seat when it comes to world class collections in Canada so again it would be nice to see Mark44's example.
To clear things up, I am referring to Canadian vets post war at the various dockyards,not necessarily Gdansk/Danzig pistols move along with the crews whom were also replaced and or redeployed.
Documentation as to where a pistol was picked up by our Canadian vets is a tough one, many years and many stories later muddy the waters-buy the pistol not the story unless provenance can be proved.
Also it is tough to find out exactly where Canadian forces served as we were lumped in with the British in most cases, some of our men did spend time at the once held German occupied ports as we came in from the North through Holland and yes primarily German Ports.
My whole point in this discussion is basically to say that with Canadian vets serving during occupation periods at various German held ports(France included) post WW#2 it strikes me as bieng strange that very few known examples of KM marked Radom pistols have turned up in other countries besides the USA.
We have multiple examples of KM marked Mausers pistols but few Radoms, our home grown Canadian collectors do not need to take a back seat when it comes to world class collections in Canada so again it would be nice to see Mark44's example.
Mark44,
Just a suggestion.
Try to use Photobucket or a similar service to upload your photos to the CGN Forum. CGN does not have a photo uploading vehicle that I am familiar with.
Imperial Luger, my understanding is that the Nordsee Fleet was based in
Wilhelmshaven and the Baltic Fleet was based in Kiel.
To your point, this Mauser Model 1934 with KM markings and Ostee property markings was picked up by a Canadian Vet in Wilhemshaven 10 days after the German surrender.
A provenance document that came with this pistol for whatever it is worth?
NOTE;
There were two navy markings Ostsee (“O”) Baltic Sea and Nordsee (“N”)
Not matching ...but close.
The North Sea and Baltic Sea...as shown on the map below.
The North Sea base at Wilhelmshaven, the Baltic Sea base at Kiel.
The question is... were there any KM marked Radoms picked up by Canadian forces?
I suspect...very few.
David
Just a suggestion.
Try to use Photobucket or a similar service to upload your photos to the CGN Forum. CGN does not have a photo uploading vehicle that I am familiar with.
Imperial Luger, my understanding is that the Nordsee Fleet was based in
Wilhelmshaven and the Baltic Fleet was based in Kiel.
To your point, this Mauser Model 1934 with KM markings and Ostee property markings was picked up by a Canadian Vet in Wilhemshaven 10 days after the German surrender.
A provenance document that came with this pistol for whatever it is worth?
NOTE;
There were two navy markings Ostsee (“O”) Baltic Sea and Nordsee (“N”)
Not matching ...but close.
The North Sea and Baltic Sea...as shown on the map below.
The North Sea base at Wilhelmshaven, the Baltic Sea base at Kiel.
The question is... were there any KM marked Radoms picked up by Canadian forces?
I suspect...very few.
David
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Imperial luger
Regular
David
Nice Ostsee marked Mauser,your provenance looks good and makes sense, this is what provenance should do, correct on both ports-Wilhelmshaven and Kiel but mainly for high seas fleets, the main U-boat arm was relocated to France once defeated and the pens were built, shorter routes to the Atlantic however the North sea to attack Russian bent convoys and escape routes around Norway still played a large part in Donitz's wolf packs.
N and O property marks as you are aware stand for the two German ports of Wilhelmshaven and Kiel,these are both long standing ports going back to Imperial times. N marked German small arms are more abundant than O marked small arms so you have a real treasure on your hands.Phrohib or not.
What you are not saying is if my theory is correct that some Radoms went to the new port of Danzig formerly Gdansk why are the KM marked Radoms in Axis pistols written by Still marked with N only for the North sea rather than O for Ostsee which is a baltic port closer to the new German occupied port of Danzig. This valid point is one that I have pondered many a night only to surmize that small arms were procured based on need.The free port city of Danzig has a rich history and we know that Imperial navy lugers were marked W.D.###X for Werft Danzig so why not some WW#2 manufactured small arms, the answer has to be that property marks originated from the Imperial era to the Weimar era in German controlled ports only and little property marking was done during WW#2 in occupied countries.
The Kriegsmarine procured Star B's for Hendanay France are not marked and are identified by serial #'s based on Spanish records
It is true that German coastal batteries were set up in the occupied ports for defence and would need small arms.
I wish I had more answers but discussions such as this tax the brain and is a good exercise, this KM topic should be allowed to drift to Bayonet's also and other naval accoutrements.
Nice Ostsee marked Mauser,your provenance looks good and makes sense, this is what provenance should do, correct on both ports-Wilhelmshaven and Kiel but mainly for high seas fleets, the main U-boat arm was relocated to France once defeated and the pens were built, shorter routes to the Atlantic however the North sea to attack Russian bent convoys and escape routes around Norway still played a large part in Donitz's wolf packs.
N and O property marks as you are aware stand for the two German ports of Wilhelmshaven and Kiel,these are both long standing ports going back to Imperial times. N marked German small arms are more abundant than O marked small arms so you have a real treasure on your hands.Phrohib or not.
What you are not saying is if my theory is correct that some Radoms went to the new port of Danzig formerly Gdansk why are the KM marked Radoms in Axis pistols written by Still marked with N only for the North sea rather than O for Ostsee which is a baltic port closer to the new German occupied port of Danzig. This valid point is one that I have pondered many a night only to surmize that small arms were procured based on need.The free port city of Danzig has a rich history and we know that Imperial navy lugers were marked W.D.###X for Werft Danzig so why not some WW#2 manufactured small arms, the answer has to be that property marks originated from the Imperial era to the Weimar era in German controlled ports only and little property marking was done during WW#2 in occupied countries.
The Kriegsmarine procured Star B's for Hendanay France are not marked and are identified by serial #'s based on Spanish records
It is true that German coastal batteries were set up in the occupied ports for defence and would need small arms.
I wish I had more answers but discussions such as this tax the brain and is a good exercise, this KM topic should be allowed to drift to Bayonet's also and other naval accoutrements.
Yes ,I was lucky to get it ,it is all original and matching. I do belive this radom is the only one in the world to have such combination of markings.
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mark44,
Thanks for posting your photos.
Would it be possible to take a very clear photo of the KM marking showing the Polish Eagle, as well as the N grip strap marking?
The pistol looks to be in very nice condition.
The nice finish on these earlier Radoms makes the later versions look like the quality really showed the effect of the war as time went by.
Is your holster KM marked?
If so, could you post a photo of any markings?
What is the serial number?
Thanks,
David
Thanks for posting your photos.
Would it be possible to take a very clear photo of the KM marking showing the Polish Eagle, as well as the N grip strap marking?
The pistol looks to be in very nice condition.
The nice finish on these earlier Radoms makes the later versions look like the quality really showed the effect of the war as time went by.
Is your holster KM marked?
If so, could you post a photo of any markings?
What is the serial number?
Thanks,
David
I have new camera and will try to make better photos.Regarding the holster at first I did not see the stamp between loops, then under right angle and right light it show that something was there, the holster has some water spots on the back .Here are the photos of the place where the stamp was.
Thanks for the effort mark44.
Hard to pick up these markings sometimes as 'perhaps' the belt would have rubbed against them.
Perhaps some overall photos of your holster would be nice.
I suspect that KM marked Radom holsters are very rare.
This KM marked holster does not belong to me...but I think that the markings are correct.
This is a black army marked Radom holster.
Many were brown.
David
Hard to pick up these markings sometimes as 'perhaps' the belt would have rubbed against them.
Perhaps some overall photos of your holster would be nice.
I suspect that KM marked Radom holsters are very rare.
This KM marked holster does not belong to me...but I think that the markings are correct.
This is a black army marked Radom holster.
Many were brown.
David
My thoughts on the scarcity of Kreigsmarine Radoms in Canada as opposed to the U.S.A is that it probably reflects on the proportions of Radoms in Canada compared to the U.S.A.
How many of us have German occupation Radoms? How many have prewar Polish 'Eagles'? How many 'N' marked?
Then compare to the U.S.A.
Imho the reason why there are more Kriegsmarine Radoms in the U.S. is that there are more Radoms there period. Its a large milsurp collecting community with more money. There are more of any Polish milsurps down there than up here.
More Radoms go to the Wehrmacht and SS than the Kriegsmarine as its more relevant for these troops to have them. Of the Kriegsmarine Radoms the U-Boat crews get - how many are lost when the U-Boats are sunk as opposed being captured.
How many Radoms never see the light of day in the West as a good proportion are captured in the East by the Soviets, either from the Poles in 1939, from the Wehrmacht and SS during the war or from the Germans after the occupation of Poland and Eastern Germany.
Soviet Army didn't use 9mm until later. 7.625x25mm was their pistol and submachine gun cartridge. Polish Radoms and German Radoms would bourgeoisie tools to be melted down and turned into JS-3s, T-54s and BTR-40s for the proletariat.
How many of us have German occupation Radoms? How many have prewar Polish 'Eagles'? How many 'N' marked?
Then compare to the U.S.A.
Imho the reason why there are more Kriegsmarine Radoms in the U.S. is that there are more Radoms there period. Its a large milsurp collecting community with more money. There are more of any Polish milsurps down there than up here.
More Radoms go to the Wehrmacht and SS than the Kriegsmarine as its more relevant for these troops to have them. Of the Kriegsmarine Radoms the U-Boat crews get - how many are lost when the U-Boats are sunk as opposed being captured.
How many Radoms never see the light of day in the West as a good proportion are captured in the East by the Soviets, either from the Poles in 1939, from the Wehrmacht and SS during the war or from the Germans after the occupation of Poland and Eastern Germany.
Soviet Army didn't use 9mm until later. 7.625x25mm was their pistol and submachine gun cartridge. Polish Radoms and German Radoms would bourgeoisie tools to be melted down and turned into JS-3s, T-54s and BTR-40s for the proletariat.
Hi mark44 ...more stuff regarding your pistol.
These photos are from Jan Still's book Axis Pistols.
Posted on Jan Still’s Forum on 09/01/2003 and later on 01/13/2004 by a knowledgeable collector.
4 Characteristics of an Original KM Radom.
“Due to the recent traffic in the discussion of what constitutes the real features of a KM Radom , I am reposting these 4 characteristics which are found on ALL original Kreigsmarine Radom's , whether they have fleet numbers or not. They must have all 4 of these features and if not, drop, turn, and run to the nearest exit. Most, if not all the fakes will have one or more of these features missing. Serial numbers will run up to not more than A5600's.
-KM proof will be in near vertical alignment with the take down lever slot of the slide.
-The front grip strap will always have a letter N pantographed whether it has fleet markings or not.
-The once installed original lanyard ring will be removed and show evidence of such.
-The barrel will always be blued as view through the ejection port.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another comment from a Forum member recently. (He thinks your gun is 'right as rain'.)
He is a serious Radom guy….but he has never seen one like yours.
“Polish Eagle KM marked is in 10 000 block and there are a few Polish Eagles Nazi over stamped in that block. The Germans had to come across some Polish legend slides and used them in their production. Truly it is not a Polish Eagle, it has a Polish slide.
There are at least four examples of Polish eagle Nazi over stamped (Berger’s book as well as Jan C. Still’s book) they are not navy marked.”
-------------------------------------------------------------
mark44 what is the serial number on your pistol?
When you have a rare pistol you have to expect this as none have been seen with KM markings on a 1939 with the Polish eagle legend.
Most collectors recognize the type of KM markings shown below without the Polish eagle legend.
That is the mystery with your pistol....no one has seen one.
That does not mean that it is incorrect....just different.
David
These photos are from Jan Still's book Axis Pistols.
Posted on Jan Still’s Forum on 09/01/2003 and later on 01/13/2004 by a knowledgeable collector.
4 Characteristics of an Original KM Radom.
“Due to the recent traffic in the discussion of what constitutes the real features of a KM Radom , I am reposting these 4 characteristics which are found on ALL original Kreigsmarine Radom's , whether they have fleet numbers or not. They must have all 4 of these features and if not, drop, turn, and run to the nearest exit. Most, if not all the fakes will have one or more of these features missing. Serial numbers will run up to not more than A5600's.
-KM proof will be in near vertical alignment with the take down lever slot of the slide.
-The front grip strap will always have a letter N pantographed whether it has fleet markings or not.
-The once installed original lanyard ring will be removed and show evidence of such.
-The barrel will always be blued as view through the ejection port.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another comment from a Forum member recently. (He thinks your gun is 'right as rain'.)
He is a serious Radom guy….but he has never seen one like yours.
“Polish Eagle KM marked is in 10 000 block and there are a few Polish Eagles Nazi over stamped in that block. The Germans had to come across some Polish legend slides and used them in their production. Truly it is not a Polish Eagle, it has a Polish slide.
There are at least four examples of Polish eagle Nazi over stamped (Berger’s book as well as Jan C. Still’s book) they are not navy marked.”
-------------------------------------------------------------
mark44 what is the serial number on your pistol?
When you have a rare pistol you have to expect this as none have been seen with KM markings on a 1939 with the Polish eagle legend.
Most collectors recognize the type of KM markings shown below without the Polish eagle legend.
That is the mystery with your pistol....no one has seen one.
That does not mean that it is incorrect....just different.
David
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drm3m, mine KM radom has serial number only 4 pistols(correction 50 pistols) off from the pistol in the axis pistols book, both pistols have polish and german markings and both have GERMAN pre alphabet serial numbers. All pre alphabet occupation radoms have pre war made receivers and slides,some of the captured slides had polish pre war markings on them so the Germans did used them too.
I want just add that in the pre alphabet occupation radoms lanyard rings where not removed,they were never installed .
If no one has seen pistol like mine, I will take it as a compliment
I want just add that in the pre alphabet occupation radoms lanyard rings where not removed,they were never installed .
If no one has seen pistol like mine, I will take it as a compliment
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mark44,
I think that what you said makes sense.
In 1939 I think that the Germans used whatever parts they found.
It just so happens that they used the Polish eagle marked slide found on your gun and gave it KM markings.
The challenge becomes one of not having seen other KM marked Radoms with the Polish eagle legend.
It seems to fit all the other criteria;
-no lanyard ring.
-blued barrel.
-KM markings on the receiver.
-N marking on the grip strap.
If I were you....I would take really good photos of the N grip strap marking;
A really good photo of the KM marking with the Polish eagle legend;
Photo of the serial number marking.
How is the magazine marked?
If you have a rare pistol you may have to go through this stuff.
It can be a pain in the ass....I understand.....but I think that your pistol deserves the effort.
KM pistol collectors can be very critical and analytical, particularly where it involves a rare pistol that no one has seen before.
David
Here is a 1939 pre alphabet serial number with the lanyard ring in place and with a non blued barrel.
Photo showing magazine markings.
KM markings on a 'grz' manufactured Radom holster.
I think that what you said makes sense.
In 1939 I think that the Germans used whatever parts they found.
It just so happens that they used the Polish eagle marked slide found on your gun and gave it KM markings.
The challenge becomes one of not having seen other KM marked Radoms with the Polish eagle legend.
It seems to fit all the other criteria;
-no lanyard ring.
-blued barrel.
-KM markings on the receiver.
-N marking on the grip strap.
If I were you....I would take really good photos of the N grip strap marking;
A really good photo of the KM marking with the Polish eagle legend;
Photo of the serial number marking.
How is the magazine marked?
If you have a rare pistol you may have to go through this stuff.
It can be a pain in the ass....I understand.....but I think that your pistol deserves the effort.
KM pistol collectors can be very critical and analytical, particularly where it involves a rare pistol that no one has seen before.
David
Here is a 1939 pre alphabet serial number with the lanyard ring in place and with a non blued barrel.
Photo showing magazine markings.
KM markings on a 'grz' manufactured Radom holster.
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