Poor shooting Rem 700 youth model

[DGY]

I don't know if yours came from the factory with a pressure point but several 700s that I have owned shot much better after removing. A free floating pencil thin barrel often needs more clearance than one would think.

As far as the 1.5 inch groups being acceptable. Most youth and the vast majority of adults would be extremely lucky to shoot 1.5 inch groups with a rifle capable of shooting bug holes. So if you have a rifle that is only capable of 1.5 inch groups and a kid that is only capable of 1.5 inch groups now you may be pushing 3 or even 4 inches off the bench. Add to that some cold hands, no bench and the excitement of the hunt and you might be looking at a less than ideal shot.

I think 1-2 inch groups are totally acceptable for hunting if the hunter/rifle can consistently produce those groups in the field. For kids starting out, I think we should eliminate as many negative factors as possible.

Good points. As for what is acceptable as a group for hunting rifles, if you know the rifle and or you can’t do better than 2”@100 well maybe it’s time to link your distances, and use an aid like shooting sticks or if you are in a stand or a blind find a way to use a rest.
I know lots of hunters who can’t shoot better than 2-2.5”@100 from the bench and they are really successful hunters they don’t miss on games but they know what they can do and what they can’t do so knowing your limitations will bring more success than 1” groups!

 

[jethunter]

There's a good reason why heavier rifles are used in accuracy competitions. Heavier barrels tend to be stiffer and have less whip, and more consistency in movement from shot to shot.

1¼" is pretty good for a lightweight, mass produced rifle. Possibly a good bedding job could improve action to stock fit and tighten groups. Mass produced lightweight barrels aren't built for high accuracy. I tend to think 1¼" to 1½" is about what to expect in these rifles.

My kids used a rem 788 7mm08 for their first deer rifle. It had the carbine length barrel and I shortened the stock ¾". I didn't work hard at developing a load for it, and it shot similar to what you have. That's plenty good for the 200 yd max I set for them when shooting game animals.

 

[Leavenworth]

Factory shot 1.25" and can only get 1.5" with handloads?

Both are perfectly acceptable for deer out to 300 or more - moa is a ~3" circle at 300, 1.5moa only brings that up to 4.5". Trigger time is more important than half an MoA in ammo, so just get something good enough and get the kids to the range.

As for the gun, maybe it likes light bullets, maybe that's all it's good for. We're pretty spoiled by modern manufacturing processes where making a very accurate rifle is relatively easy, but unless it's coming with a guarantee I wouldn't be all that surprised by a factory rifle that can't quite get there.

Suther ! Could you please explain your first paragraph a little more to me .
Thanks

 

[Suther]

Suther ! Could you please explain your first paragraph a little more to me .
Thanks

The part about the size of the circle vs MoA of the gun?

 

[dan belisle]

I understand that I only need to have an inch or so for a hunting rifle. I understand this won’t be a long range shooter in its configuration. I understand twist rates etc. I was thinking it should be able to shoot up to 90s decently. I don’t think 1.5” is decent with hand loads to be honest.

I am going to try some lighter bullets and see what it can do with them.

That's one option. Another is to bed the rifles properly and recrown them. That's worked for me on many rifles. - dan

 

[Suther]

As far as the 1.5 inch groups being acceptable. Most youth and the vast majority of adults would be extremely lucky to shoot 1.5 inch groups with a rifle capable of shooting bug holes. So if you have a rifle that is only capable of 1.5 inch groups and a kid that is only capable of 1.5 inch groups now you may be pushing 3 or even 4 inches off the bench. Add to that some cold hands, no bench and the excitement of the hunt and you might be looking at a less than ideal shot.

As I said before, trigger time is more valuable than a sub-MoA gun. Eliminating variables is good, but a 0.25MoA gun in the hands of someone with very little experience is a much worse option than a 1.5MoA gun in the hands of someone who's had the time to develop good marksmanship skills.

Simply put, it's generally easier to shrink the groups of a new shooter with good practice than it is to shrink them by making the gun more accurate.

 

[DGY]

Again it comes down to proficiency, practice make perfect, shot placement is king! If you can place your first shot inside a 8” circle at any of the distances you plan on hunting using what you plan to use for aid then you are golden. If it’s 8” at 150m and out at 200 then you know you better stick to under 150m and of course that is in all conditions as well. I think most don’t understand that. It is of course on a broadside target, level with you in no wind at the same or similar altitude as you practiced and sighted in your rifle. If any of those parameters change you need to know what to do and usually it’s either not taking the shot or getting closer. It is also knowing the limitations of the ammo/bullet/cartridge use.
So yeah keep your cold barrel, cold fingers, pumping heart rate first shot inside that 8” circle and you are golden!

 

[45C]

So if a 1 1/2 to 2 moa rifle is good enough for hunting,what’s up with all the gun manufacturers coming up with 1/2 moa rifles? Why bother,especially if it’s only a waste of time as nobody can shoot that well anyway?
And what’s the cut off 3 moa, 4 moa?

Or maybe they should start advertising guns as 100 yard capable?

 

[AKAalbertacoyotecaller]

I wouldn’t say I am exactly new to shooting or reloading. These two youth models have me a bit stumped but maybe I am asking too much out of them for heavier bullets. I might be better to trade them off for a better caliber in another model for deer and bear hunting anyways.

 

[Suther]

So if a 1 1/2 to 2 moa rifle is good enough for hunting,what’s up with all the gun manufacturers coming up with 1/2 moa rifles? Why bother,especially if it’s only a waste of time as nobody can shoot that well anyway?

Because people like you will buy them. Also the guns that ARE guaranteed 1/2moa are rarely hunting guns, those are competition guns. I don't care how accurate it is, I'm not carrying a 12lb rifle in the field unless it's bigger than 40cal. Expecting a stock Rem700 to compete in that world is illogical.

Nobody is saying a more accurate gun is a BAD THING. We're just saying it's not a necessity.

 

[Suther]

I wouldn’t say I am exactly new to shooting or reloading. These two youth models have me a bit stumped but maybe I am asking too much out of them for heavier bullets. I might be better to trade them off for a better caliber in another model for deer and bear hunting anyways.

My buddy is in a wheelchair, he's been killing deer and black bear for 15 years with a 243win. They work just fine in you do your part.

For your goal - getting kids started - the 243win is a fine choice, and unless you plan to let them take 300yd+ shots right out the gate then 1.5moa is plenty accurate enough to get them started down that path.

You're over thinking it. Just get them to the range and let them shoot.

 

[Joel]

So if a 1 1/2 to 2 moa rifle is good enough for hunting,what’s up with all the gun manufacturers coming up with 1/2 moa rifles? Why bother,especially if it’s only a waste of time as nobody can shoot that well anyway?
And what’s the cut off 3 moa, 4 moa?

Or maybe they should start advertising guns as 100 yard capable?

Makers respond to what the market wants. And thats what the market wants. Whats up with 12 ounce scopes? Whats up with everything being tactical or long range oriented? Whats up with people buying anything they buy that they don't need?

Besides, who doesn't like punching tiny little groups in paper off of a bench that totally doesn't replicate hunting? It feels good lol.

The cutoff depends on what you're hunting, how big the vitals are, and how far away its gonna be.

Obviously no one with an iron sighted 30-30 is doing better than 4 MOA when field shooting. Obviously it works. Obviously no ones gonna shoot at moose 400 yards away with it.

Crazy as this sounds, you match tools for their jobs. Personally I'm still waiting to hear what big game hunting jobs a 1.5 MOA rifle is inadequate for lol. Think I'll be waiting a while.

 

[45C]

I use a $750 Winchester XPR that soots 3/4 moa from the bench.
I’m comfortable shooting an animal out to 300 yards with this gun.
If I had a gun that could only shoot 1 1/2 to 2 moa from the bench I’d throw it in the Bay.

 

[Suther]

I use a $750 Winchester XPR that soots 3/4 moa from the bench.
I’m comfortable shooting an animal out to 300 yards with this gun.
If I had a gun that could only shoot 1 1/2 to 2 moa from the bench I’d throw it in the Bay.

My rem700 is not consistently sub-Moa. But 1.5 moa is only ~4.5" at 300, plenty accurate enough to kill a deer with an 8"+ vital zone. At that range wind is likely to be a bigger factor than the gun - a 10mph crosswind is pushing a 243win 6-8" depending on the bullet.

 

[todbartell]

A poor shooting rifle will have a mean radius of around 0.7moa (meaning the average impact location of the bullets will land within 0.7moa of the middle of the group)

This will fairly consistently hit a 10" diameter vital zone out to 1/4 mile off a steady rest

We tend to have too high of expectations out of lightweight hunting rifles with unbedded stocks

 

[Denver Steve]

Have the exact same twist rate on a super light barreled 243 in a savage lady hunter. Loves all the older soft point bullets up to a hundred grains, and the nosler 95 grain ballistic tip is phenomenal with all different powders. 58 vmax is very easy to keep 5 shot groups under a inch if you let the barrel cool between shots.

However if you try to shoot any bullet with a longer bearing surface it will not shoot good at all. The 90 grain Sierra tipped bullets will literally keyhole, they have a much longer bearing surface than it appears I guess.

 

[Joel]

I use a $750 Winchester XPR that soots 3/4 moa from the bench.
I’m comfortable shooting an animal out to 300 yards with this gun.
If I had a gun that could only shoot 1 1/2 to 2 moa from the bench I’d throw it in the Bay.

Why? How would that be deficient for hunting in the above scenario?

A poor shooting rifle will have a mean radius of around 0.7moa (meaning the average impact location of the bullets will land within 0.7moa of the middle of the group)

This will fairly consistently hit a 10" diameter vital zone out to 1/4 mile off a steady rest

We tend to have too high of expectations out of lightweight hunting rifles with unbedded stocks

Not to worry good sir! Mine shoots .75" 3 shot groups.

Some of the time. Sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes I just reject "fliers".

Or....consistent sub MOA 3 shot group but the center of each group is like a half inch or more away from the center of previous groups but thats totally not a 1.5+ MO gun. Nope not at all

 

[AKAalbertacoyotecaller]

The kids are way past this stage now and past university days. I am keeping these rifles for grandchildren now. Never liked how they shot so just trying to get them figured out and it seems they don’t like heavy projectiles.

My kids have shot thousands of gophers over the years. They shoot them with bows now.

Quite the question I have asked.

 

[AKAalbertacoyotecaller]

N

Have the exact same twist rate on a super light barreled 243 in a savage lady hunter. Loves all the older soft point bullets up to a hundred grains, and the nosler 95 grain ballistic tip is phenomenal with all different powders. 58 vmax is very easy to keep 5 shot groups under a inch if you let the barrel cool between shots.

However if you try to shoot any bullet with a longer bearing surface it will not shoot good at all. The 90 grain Sierra tipped bullets will literally keyhole, they have a much longer bearing surface than it appears I guess.

No keyholes seen yet. Just some embarrassing groups.

I have some 70 gr Noslers Ballistic Tips loaded up to try today. Will see and report back.

 

[Suther]

The kids are way past this stage now and past university days. I am keeping these rifles for grandchildren now. Never liked how they shot so just trying to get them figured out and it seems they don’t like heavy projectiles.

My kids have shot thousands of gophers over the years. They shoot them with bows now.

Quite the question I have asked.

Well if they don't meet your expectations then sell em. No harm in that. They're perfectly suitable for the stated goal, but if you're not happy with em why keep them around? How much money have you burned in components trying to get them to shoot better, and how much more are you willing to spend before cutting your losses?

Or If you like to tinker, bed em. Cut and crown them. Put them in a new stock. Get them blueprinted. There's lots of things you can do that will *probably* get you better results... but is the juice worth the squeeze? Or would you be left thinking "should have sold them and bought a Tikka" anyways?... depends how much money and time is valued, it's probably cheaper to sell em and just buy something else, and it's certainly less time consuming but some people love to tinker and would feel more rewarded going that route.