Potential Match Division Change - advice needed.

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Runningfool

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We are in the process of finalizing the details for our upcoming multi-gun match at the Galt Sportsmens Club on Thanksgiving weekend (Saturday October 11th). Registration details will be emailed out within the next week to those on our mailing list so keep your eyes peeled for that ;)

I've been kicking around the idea of making a minor change to our divisions and I would like your feedback. I'm considering making the divisions so that anyone loading more than 10 rounds in their AR mags would be placed in the "Open" division. We already do a similar thing with shotguns whereby loading more than 8 shells bumps you into open, so I figured perhaps it might be a good idea to do something similar with AR mags.

The Beowulf mags are pretty popular now and I'd say about a third of the competitors at our last match ran them. In some stages they are a distinct advantage and in others they are not. Since the divisions are about keeping competitors competing against those with similar gear, do you think it is time for this change or do you think the divisions should stay as-is? I'd appreciate your thoughts.
 
It's say that's overly harsh....you're basically taking someone who you perceive to have a distinct advantage in one division on maybe one stage and putting them into a division where they would have a distinct disadvantage....all because of their rifle mags? Plus, this whole issue can be resolved with clever stage design.

If you're going to make divisions for people's gear....be sure to put all the guys who load 2 into open as well since that is a definite advantage related to gear.

If people are too cheap to run the appropriate gear, ive never believed the right response is to marginalize the guys that do....if anything...make an entry division for guys with only limited gear, but don't put everyone in open.

By the by....10 rounds is fairly arbitrary itself.. I could probably argue that 10 round mags are a distinct advantage over 5 round mags and that guys with lar mags should be in open as well
 
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Limiting rounds by division is what is currently done in other action shooting sports. Load too many rounds gets you an automatic bump to another division. Not a problem in Canada.

Onagoth brings up a good point, should it be a 5 round or 10 round limit? How many people are running LAR mags? 10 rounders may be the middle-ground.

This would be a good question on the sign up form. The number of shooters with AR/LAR/Beowulf magazines could influence the final decision making the round limit less arbitrary. It would be up to the shooter to load the appropriate number of rounds regardless of what type of magazines are used.

One reason for rules is to level the playing field but it must be done with a reasonable amount of consideration of the effects.

All rules makes everyone cranky... ; )

DavesNotHere
 
You could even simplify things (not sure if its actually simple!!) by having a "limited" division where you set restrictions like 5 round mags/stripper clips, pump gun, no magnified optics or whatever, and then open where you run what you brung.

Or leave it as is, seeing as it has been working for you so far.
Either way, people will show up to have fun, just notify them as far ahead as possible of rule changes so they have time to make any equipment changes necessary.
1 month lead time may be pushing it so it may have to be a "going forward" rules edit.
 
Onagoth said:
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If people are too cheap to run the appropriate gear, ive never believed the right response is to marginalize the guys that do....
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Agreed in general principle, but I object to saying that they're too cheap to run the right stuff. It's only the "appropriate gear" because of the bizarre combination of obtuse gun laws and poor firearms accessory market we have in Canada.

And expense is a huge factor for many shooters. I'd much rather remove as many barriers to entry as possible. As in, let's not marginalize guys who are on a budget.

It would be great if there was a "budget division", but I see no way to administer that fairly. Maybe the answer is to pay more attention to "classes" as is done in conventional IPSC pistol. Particularly, recognition of competition within the "novice class" would reflect the difficulty that many have in their first season while sorting out various gear issues (including trying to source hard-to-find kit in the middle of the season).
 
In my opinion, there is an important difference between gear-driven advantage and technique-driven advantage. If someone wants to learn something that makes them score better, that's different from simply paying to score better. I think Beowulf mags are similar to Open guns in this sense. Load-2 / Load-4 is a combination of gear and technique, at least. But you can't ever really eliminate the issue, so the question is what to do with it. I think you have to look at how equipment selection can fundamentally change the shooter's performance within the game. IPSC pistol provides a good example: An Open pistol looks nothing at all like a Production pistol. And the performance reflects it. Easy to see the difference. How do you do the same with rifles? Optics and magazines seem to be the easiest factors to consider.

Anybody can easily obtain the LAR mags, they're available everywhere. Last time I checked, the Beowulf mags were sold out everywhere. So, that makes them unobtanium for people who don't have them. That's a good reason to make them "open" equipment, I think. But why pick on Beowulf mags in particular? Just because they are an easy target? The GS Designs mag extensions that I installed on my LAR mags makes them far easier to manipulate, for example. Do either of these fundamentally change how the shooter performs in 3-Gun? No, not in the same sense that multiple optics on your rifle do.

You can make a similar argument for restricting shooters to 5-rd magazines, and I actually don't have a problem with that at all. I think it's unfortunate that AR magazine fed rifles are accepted as the only viable 3-Gun options. (I ran a CZ858 before the gubment made it naughty)

The other thing to consider (as Onagoth said) is that you can (and should!) design stages to eliminate the magazine capacity advantage. If the stage does not require more than ten rounds to be fired from a single shooting position (no standing reloads for LAR-mag shooters), the Beowulf magazine capacity advantage is really minimized (but usually not eliminated - It's always slower to sprint while reloading). Honestly, it's boring to stand in one spot and dump magazines anyways. Good stages (IMO) have you shooting and moving.

While we're on the topic, I'd really like to see more prone shotgun shooting, just to see the Load-2 / Load-4 crowd squirm... ;)
 
Whatever perceived advantage you think having a few extra rounds in your mag gives can easily be negated via stage design.
More divisions just waters down the results.
 
The PCV mags are readily available.

Speaking as someone that uses LAR mags and doesn't have Beowulf mags yet, I have only ever competed in one stage that I recall where Beowulf mags actually had much of an advantage and would have enabled you to eliminate a reload if you went 2-for-2 on all the paper. I don't think it's worth worrying about.

LAR mags are the standard these days. Catering to the lowest common denominator (5 round mags) is just going to encourage people to not prepare properly and drag down the game.

If you are following the principles of good stage design, you don't want a ridiculous number of rounds from any one given position anyway as you want to encourage movement through the stage.

Leave it as it is.
 
We're just talking about limiting round count here right?

I believe the point is to create an environment where you can "run the mags you brung" and keep the divisions competitive. This would be even more pertinent for people who aren't running an AR platform...

I think the biggest reason not to make an "open" division is that there aren't that many shooters to begin with. It's no fun to be made to play alone.

One way to keep everyone in one happy family is to design all stages to negate the large difference in round count as 667 proposes. Target arrays can be limited to two or three and there is enough movement to get to the next position to fit in a moving reload. Or, force reloads. A required mag change could be a new mag or "mag removal with a tap on belt then re-insert". This could even go as far as clear gun, ground it, do something else, like a Timmy's run, then pick up, reload and re-engage.

Maybe behind all this is the the desire to avoid reloads on the clock. This is probably the easiest skill to practice in dry-fire and where a lot of shooters gain whole seconds on other competitors. What are the par times on reloads of those of you out there? How many people know their par times for reloads standing, moving and prone?

Mag round count limit? Bring it!!!

Here's some ideas from Jerry...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CZaqoeJSE

DavesNotHere
 
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Awesome feedback guys. This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get. Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about "making more divisions"...we've always had open, tac ops, and irons and those would stay the same. At the Team Hoser matches I've been to, loading more than 8 shells in my pump would bump me from tac ops into open division so I was wondering out loud if the same logic should apply to AR mags. Maybe what I should be questioning is the logic behind the shotgun 8 round limit for tac ops and drop that.

I agree that stage design is what should really matter. I like designing stages that negate the advantages of certain gear. I've also incorporated some forced reloads since I want EVERYONE to do mag changes on the clock to challenge themselves and to test their reloading skills.

Probably best to just leave things as they are. It ain't broke so why fix it! :). Thanks again for all of the feedback.
 
Loading more than 10 in a Beowulf mag puts you in Open at our Peace Country outlaw matches. Haven't heard a single complaint.
 
Matches and stages that are run "Freestyle" or shoot them them how the individual competitor sees fit to shoot them are the best.
Being made to do reloads at certain times, or "you can only shoot that target from this position", or unloaded starts....are just some of my "Pet Peeves"!

That being said, TacOps and Open are pretty much the same thing here in Canada. We aren't able to take advantage of some of the things that USA shooters are....such Beta Mags for AR's, Saiga shotguns, Xrails. The only real advantage Open Division has here in Canada is the Optics on a handgun. If someone was real proficient with a Pump Gun, I guess a long magazine tube and speed loaders "could" be perceived as an advantage.

15 round Beowolf Mags just aren't that much of an advantage to make that big of a difference, most time is wasted with the carbine/rifle with not being able to hit stuff at distance....having 5 extra rounds usually doesn't help!
 
alpining said:
While we're on the topic, I'd really like to see more prone shotgun shooting, just to see the Load-2 / Load-4 crowd squirm... ;)
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Won't make a difference to someone who knows what they are doing.
I'd just lay on my back and shoot upside down!!!
 
I think mag capacity should be left out of classifications completely. By saying you can't shoot in a class with more than 5 or 10 rounds is just saying that we don't need regualar size magazines to compete in the sport. Just my thoughts on it.
 
7.62mm said:
That being said, TacOps and Open are pretty much the same thing here in Canada. We aren't able to take advantage of some of the things that USA shooters are....such Beta Mags for AR's, Saiga shotguns, Xrails.
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In the US matches I've shot the only thing that put you in OPEN was the tank brake, a second optics and the bipod on your AR. There was no mag limit (including 100rd Beta mags) A lot of guys have 60 & 100 rd Surefire mags in Tac Ops & Tac Lim. On the other hand, some clubs say no coupled mags or max 30rd mags.
 
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