Very good point about crud . . . tho I pull the first patch from muzzle to chamber to remove the primer cra* (not into action, caught b4 that far) and then pull from chamber to muzzle all the rest of the patches and/or brushes using care at the crown. And C4 to remove Carbon ring.
Precision rimfire and barrel seasoning
- Thread starter GunsNotPuns
- Start date
Very good point about crud . . . tho I pull the first patch from muzzle to chamber to remove the primer cra* (not into action, caught b4 that far) and then pull from chamber to muzzle all the rest of the patches and/or brushes using care at the crown. And C4 to remove Carbon ring.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
They have setup their shooting conditions and ammo to reflect this need. Rimfire PRS shooters can't do that because they would be in a world of hurt by the end of the day or the next day.
PRS rifles will tune to run when absolutely filthy cause that is the condition they will face at the end of a long match (100 to 125rds is not uncommon in a day). If the event allows fouling in the morning, some will clean and foul but I have been caught where there wasn't this time and had to start on a clean bore.... that makes for some real frustrating stages until things settle down.
Why you will get a multitude of procedures... start by determining the tasks, then figure out to best suit that need.
Jerry
It's a very good point that some disciplines don't have the same opportunities to clean as often as others. In serious BR shooting, what's key is always shooting with the best possible performance within a time limit. To be competitive BR shooters must clean, and cleaning is possible and at anticipated intervals, followed by fouling before continued competition.
In PRS shooting a compromise is necessary between best possible performance and the requirements of the clock. Of course, the levels of precision required in PRS shooting is not the same as in BR and such that it is gives the "precision" in PRS generous parameters, which is hardly surprising given the varying distances that may be involved and that shooters don't shoot from a solid, fixed bench.
What's unexpected but very interesting is the assertion that "PRS rifles will tune to run when absolutely filthy".
Jerry, what can be done to a .22LR rifle that "tunes" it -- that is changes how it might otherwise function so that it may "run" when it's very dirty? In BR shooting, for example, a barrel tuner used on rifles shooting at fixed distances may change the way a barrel and good shooting ammo behave to promote performance improvement.
What steps can shooters take to make rifles continue to perform well in PRS shooting during the long periods in matches when they can't be cleaned?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Test with a dirty barrel.... a really dirty barrel.
Choose the combination/tune the combination so that it works in that environment.
you should also adjust for the season/temps/weather you are going to be competing in.
the goal is the most stable/robust setup despite changes...
Jerry
Choose the combination/tune the combination so that it works in that environment.
you should also adjust for the season/temps/weather you are going to be competing in.
the goal is the most stable/robust setup despite changes...
Jerry
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2500x with a Shillen ratchet is where I’m at. In our game we have 20 minutes to shoot at 25 X dots that are .095” in diameter.
Once I get beyond 50 or so rounds I can definitely tell that my POI is starting to wonder around enough that I won’t take a chance and not clean it.
Thanks, Jerry.
To clarify, what tuning steps are you choosing? Tuners or something else?
If the reference is to tuners, are you changing settings as you go? Are you changing tuner settings by the ammo used? Are you changing tuner settings with distance?
When you refer to adjusting according to season/temps/weather, are these also with regard to tuner adjustments?
As per the OP, military cleaning is a different kettle of fish than .22 LR. Military cleaning accomplishes keeping their semi/full auto actions fully functional but I do know that a soldier in an accuracy competition hates getting a visibly new barrel to shoot with, and they all will insist on getting at least one shot out of a cleaned barrel before starting.
I'm quite sure that more barrels are kept sub-par accurate or even ruined by too much cleaning. That's particularly true of .22LR but also true for most others as well.
I'm quite sure that more barrels are kept sub-par accurate or even ruined by too much cleaning. That's particularly true of .22LR but also true for most others as well.
We've been shooting matches that give you 30 min for 25 shots. The target we've been using is the IBS target which has a 10 ring of .500" and the X dot I'm not sure the exact size but the the 1/8th target dot on my t36 just covers it. Which target are you using? Is it the USBR or IR50/50?
Our ranges dont even have the facilities to be able to clean between targets. I would love to just see concrete benches instead of wooden ones at our ranges as you have to be very careful how you touch the bench as you can see the reticle move with different pressures.
It's absolutely correct that in rimfire neither precision nor accuracy can be bought. It goes without saying that in every discipline, shooters must know what they are doing, or they invariably can't do well without good fortune.
Without getting into a micturition challenge, however, I'll explain that I prefer to think of precision in the way it's meant in the English language -- "the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate". In rifle shooting in general the image below conveys the meaning of "precision".
My thinking is that expectations of "precision" are not practical with .22LR shooting at square targets varying from 4" to 12" at distances from 100 yards out to 300, as is required in some PRS stages. Others may disagree, but that's why I used quotation marks with the word with reference to PRS shooting.
Lot testing is buying accuracy. Custom actions and barrels are buying accuracy. All BR shooting is buying accuracy, it's simply not that hard to pull out your wallet and be at least competitive at the local/regional level.
You can't buy that in sports where most of the accuracy comes from the shooter. Which is why I invite you to actually put some skin in the game before denigrating it.
You can't buy that in sports where most of the accuracy comes from the shooter. Which is why I invite you to actually put some skin in the game before denigrating it.
GunsNotPuns
CGN frequent flyer
God Lord, I don't know whether to thank or curse you lot for these answers, ha ha.
It's absolutely correct that in rimfire neither precision nor accuracy can be bought. It goes without saying that in every discipline, shooters must know what they are doing, or they invariably can't do well without good fortune.
Without getting into a micturition challenge, however, I'll explain that I prefer to think of precision in the way it's meant in the English language -- "the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate". In rifle shooting in general the image below conveys the meaning of "precision".
My thinking is that expectations of "precision" are not practical with .22LR shooting at square targets varying from 4" to 12" at distances from 100 yards out to 300, as is required in some PRS stages. Others may disagree, but that's why I used quotation marks with the word with reference to PRS shooting.
First off,just an FYI on target size used in rimfire Outlaw and CRPS matches. The targets start at 1/4 inch and go up in 1/4 inch increments. Once they reach 2inches they go up in size by larger increments. Most targets are round or animals or scaled IPSC targets. The distances are 25yards to over 400 when the course allows. We also shoot in all weather conditions. Not just the Cherry picked breaking dawn no wind days, paper punchers covet. I think many on here may agree that a fellow with a rimfire beyond 300 yards hitting a target 10 out of 10 is precise. No doubt a totally different discipline than BR matches with requirements matched to both individual sports.
I would never look down on any other shooting discipline.
I currently and in the past have shot IPSC, F Class, SRBR, BR for score at both short and mid range and of course RFBR. I haven't competed in silhouette or in any type of RF PRS matches but have done both for fun over the years. Just not at a formal match.
All of the above has taught me that you cant buy anything. You want to win/compete in any discipline you have to earn it.
250-18x is one of my best targets to date, your comments suggest I simply bought this? You have no clue.
When I attended Gunsite they mused about what is accuracy? The answer they came up with was being able to hit your target at any distance.
Of course for them a target was about 8 inches wide which is basically a human head.
It all depends on the scenario.
When I shoot gophers I feel that if I hit the head (at any range) it's both accurate and precise regardless if it's the right eye or the left eye or in between. It's the effect that counts in that scenario.
Of course for them a target was about 8 inches wide which is basically a human head.
It all depends on the scenario.
When I shoot gophers I feel that if I hit the head (at any range) it's both accurate and precise regardless if it's the right eye or the left eye or in between. It's the effect that counts in that scenario.
IBS, and I missed typed when I said 20 minutes, we have 30 minutes. The range in Kenora where these matches are held have both concrete and wood benches. Both are excellent.
My best score so far on the IBS target is 500 and 29x over a 2 target match. That was shot with a 40x with a factory barrel. It has been bedded and has a jewel trigger. Been using centerX .
Benchrest to me is a wind reading game. It does take good equipment and consistency but wind reading is a major part of it.
You insist on a p*ing contest. In all shooting, a great deal of accuracy/precision derives from the shooter. No one can simply click "buy" on a website and as a consequence be blessed with great accuracy performance. At the same time, no matter how experienced and skillful a shooter may be, he can't make an inexpensive, mass-produced rifle shoot like a match rifle.
Don't lament that anyone is at a disadvantage. All shooters can take advantage of being able to apply what can be learned to improve results.
Lot testing is not buying accuracy. Refusing to lot test is product of one or more things: being lazy, blind, thoughtless, uninformed, boobish or something else -- take your pick. The cost of the ammo is always pretty much the same for all shooters. If everyone is shooting the same variety of ammo, and one shooter lot tests his ammo rather than taking his chances with random lots, he's being smarter. You can't buy that. It's foolish not to lot test.
BR shooting is not simply "buying accuracy". Among other things, successful shooters must know what to do, what not to do, how to do it, and when to do it. None of that can be bought. If it was simple to buy results, with all the Vudoo and RimX and other rifles with custom barrels out there, there might be many more than five in the 1/4" club and more shooters with sub-1" averages in the 100 yard challenge. (I myself shoot with off-the-shelf rifles, one of which was bought used for less than a top end CZ 457.)
Different shooting disciplines, including CRPS, often have different categories or divisions for younger shooters and certain types of rifles. It's organized so that shooters with deeper pockets don't have an advantage over those who don't. Custom rifles with custom actions/barrels are usually in their own division competing against similar rifles.
Use the most appropriate ammo for your rifle. Apply learning to maintain and improve shooting skills. Shoot in a division appropriate for your means.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Simple answer is... YES. All the same steps are taken.. just under different bore conditions and distances.
I am now a fan of tuners cause the supply of ammo and choices has tanked. I would prefer to not have to run one but you make the ammo you have work as well as you can.
Once set, I do not adjust my tuner during a match... in fact, I will not adjust it during the season it was tuned in.
Rimfire is very temp sensitive so as weather changes and ammo changes, you tune accordingly.... thought process is similar to tuning offered by reloading
It is a dynamic system and as long as you are testing at targets 100yds and beyond, it will be very clear if your set up is working or not. I have seen combos work at 265m and crap out at 320m and beyond. Test and count every shot... and miss.
WRT to precision and accuracy, podium prs rifles are both. We tune to find the tightest and most stable "cone of accuracy" all the way out to 400m. This is a system question and if you ever want to get into the game, happy to help you get setup from rifle, barrel, optics and possible ammo options.
WRT to cost, that is entirely up to the end user. Cost doesn't ensure success... the right parts do and sometimes, that doesn't need to cost alot of money. There continues to be some very expensive parts that don't work all that well... but that is mostly by design.
I competed with a 10/22 and did very very well out to 400m against all the fancy bolts. My build uses a factory 10/22 action ... cheap (by comparison) to recreate.
My current bolt rifle which has done very well (see 100yd challenge) starts off as a $220 rifle.... just got lucky that these are built with the right bits and bobs to work for this game given some TLC and DIY updates/touches. Most factory rifles are not suitable.... until lots are changed.
Shooting rimfire LR has alot of challenges starting with the ammo but we are learning lots and are at the point where the machine can get the job done... now to find the ammo that is 'good enough'
Jerry
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