Precision rimfire and barrel seasoning

[emerson]

It's absolutely correct that in rimfire neither precision nor accuracy can be bought. It goes without saying that in every discipline, shooters must know what they are doing, or they invariably can't do well without good fortune.

Without getting into a micturition challenge, however, I'll explain that I prefer to think of precision in the way it's meant in the English language -- "the quality, condition, or fact of being exact and accurate". In rifle shooting in general the image below conveys the meaning of "precision".

My thinking is that expectations of "precision" are not practical with .22LR shooting at square targets varying from 4" to 12" at distances from 100 yards out to 300, as is required in some PRS stages. Others may disagree, but that's why I used quotation marks with the word with reference to PRS shooting.

The current standard for the basic new shooter 25-100yd matches (ORPS) is an 1 1/2” diameter round target at 50 and 2-3” diameter round target at 100. The September Course of Fire includes a 1/2” round target at 50yds. The general standard is 10 shots, 5+ position changes, 2-4 targets, and a 120sec time limit. Many of the submissions to the 10 shot groups at 100 thread, shooting off the bench no less, average between 1” and 1 1/2” while watching wind flags and choosing when to shoot. The Rimfire PRS crowd need to do that in multiple field positions whenever their 2 min starts, in order to be podium competitive. The “big boy” matches add in ranges from 50 to 300 under the same positional and time constraints. It’s a tough gig.

 

[*lawrence]

The current standard for the basic new shooter 25-100yd matches (ORPS) is an 1 1/2” diameter round target at 50 and 2-3” diameter round target at 100. The September Course of Fire includes a 1/2” round target at 50yds. The general standard is 10 shots, 5+ position changes, 2-4 targets, and a 120sec time limit. Many of the submissions to the 10 shot groups at 100 thread, shooting off the bench no less, average between 1” and 1 1/2” while watching wind flags and choosing when to shoot. The Rimfire PRS crowd need to do that in multiple field positions whenever their 2 min starts, in order to be podium competitive. The “big boy” matches add in ranges from 50 to 300 under the same positional and time constraints. It’s a tough gig.

I watched some of the BC matches from this summer on YouTube.

Indeed a tough gig.

 

[Grantmac]

You can win at PRS (especially ORPS) with a stock rifle, lower grade ammo and bags sewn at home.
You can lose at PRS with lot tested ammo out of a custom rifle with a wheelbarrow of bags.

You simply can't say the same thing about BR with even a shred of honesty. To get close to winning you have to start off with buying a rifle and ammo combination that is as near perfect as possible, then add the expensive adjustable rest etc. Then it's simply learning to read wind.

What's more precise: hitting a target with the first round you've ever sent from that position, or a rifle that is resighted each time it's placed on the bench?

 

[grauhanen]

Simple answer is... YES. All the same steps are taken.. just under different bore conditions and distances.

I am now a fan of tuners cause the supply of ammo and choices has tanked. I would prefer to not have to run one but you make the ammo you have work as well as you can.

Once set, I do not adjust my tuner during a match... in fact, I will not adjust it during the season it was tuned in.

Rimfire is very temp sensitive so as weather changes and ammo changes, you tune accordingly.... thought process is similar to tuning offered by reloading

It is a dynamic system and as long as you are testing at targets 100yds and beyond, it will be very clear if your set up is working or not. I have seen combos work at 265m and crap out at 320m and beyond. Test and count every shot... and miss.

WRT to precision and accuracy, podium prs rifles are both. We tune to find the tightest and most stable "cone of accuracy" all the way out to 400m. This is a system question and if you ever want to get into the game, happy to help you get setup from rifle, barrel, optics and possible ammo options.

Jerrry, thanks for outlining what you do with a tuner, among them being able to tune for a bore that becomes more fouled as the match goes on, making adjustments as necessary for distance, and adjusting for temperature. It seems like it must be an effort to keep track of it all.

When it comes to understanding tuners, the once active debate among BR shooters between Calfee's "stopped muzzle" theory and the "positive compensation" explanation may turn out to be moot, as perhaps neither accurately explains how and why tuners function. Nevertheless, some serious BR shooters say their rifles shoot well at both 50 and 100 without tuner adjustment, while others insist that tuner changes are necessary when two such distances are involved. It sounds like you've got it figured out.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I have a substantial background in reloading centerfire and testing high BC bullets at distance. ALL the tech in this field, transfers over to rimfire.

In short, rimfire ammo is pretty lousy stuff. Shooters make assumptions about their precision and accuracy that the last shot might represent the next. If you are lucky, that will hold true 'most of the time'. With lower grade ammo, that is far less common then our wallet would want. As my recent testing has shown, even the 'best' grade of ammo made by Lapua can have flaws... so lot testing becomes a chase to find the 'best of the worst'.

Then there are issues with external ballistics and that is a rabbit hole that needs way more testing and observation then most care for.... but for the few that really want to understand, it is in the centerfire world and have been worked on for over 100yrs.

why I just shoot at steel and work towards a predictable and repeatable cone of accuracy... as long as it is 'good enough', enjoy cause the problem will be the next prop, wind change and distance.

Jerry



I love LR rimfire despite its many flaws and complications... when you get it working, however fleeting that might be, quite the accomplishment.

 

[Mystic Precision]

If you want to learn the science of tuners, you need a system that will give you repeatable and predictable results... and that is not rimfire ammo.

centerfire BR shooters have used it for decades. They can demonstrate its function very well. F class shooters have taken to them recently and also, can show affects at distance. Although HOW they use them is likely different.

The science is pretty simple when the next bang is the same as the last one....

Jerry

 

[grauhanen]

You can win at PRS (especially ORPS) with a stock rifle, lower grade ammo and bags sewn at home.
You can lose at PRS with lot tested ammo out of a custom rifle with a wheelbarrow of bags.

You simply can't say the same thing about BR with even a shred of honesty. To get close to winning you have to start off with buying a rifle and ammo combination that is as near perfect as possible, then add the expensive adjustable rest etc. Then it's simply learning to read wind.

What's more precise: hitting a target with the first round you've ever sent from that position, or a rifle that is resighted each time it's placed on the bench?

You're like a dog with a bone.

While I've never seen a BR match, let alone shot in one or even seen any BR rifle other than those I've had, I can tell you that your understanding of rimfire BR competition has considerable room for improvement. Although not nearly as widespread in Canada as it is south of the border, there are different categories of competition in the discipline. Among the different classes in the popular ARA events, for example, are junior and factory.

Factory class rifles used in ARA must be available with an MSRP less than $1000. No modifications are allowed to the firearm or stock, except to the trigger mechanism. This means factory rimfire rifles such as those made by CZ, Ruger, and Savage are commonly used. The use of one-piece rests are not allowed in factory contests. ARA factory shooters are often new to BR shooting and for a variety of reasons don't invest in open class rifles, where almost anything goes, including one-piece rests that cost more than factory rifles.

Despite your claim above, the winners of factory ARA events can say with honesty that they won with factory rifles that don't cost a lot of money, often shooting random lots of ammo on bipods or inexpensive two piece rests.

Finally, the idea that reading the wind is simple, it's not. Factory shooters typically find they are weak in this area. Serious BR shooters often use as many as four sets of flags out to 50 yards, and even then can be flummoxed by tricky winds. Constant practice is a must, not a luxury.

Let go of your mistaken idea that rimfire benchrest is all about buying accuracy. If BR were easy, everyone could do it. Indeed, no one in any discipline shoots well without developing skills that are never innate. No one shoots well without the learning that comes from experience. As Toolman put it so well above, "you cant buy anything. You want to win/compete in any discipline you have to earn it."

Now, please let go of the bone.

 

[grauhanen]

I have a substantial background in reloading centerfire and testing high BC bullets at distance. ALL the tech in this field, transfers over to rimfire.

Since you believe centerfire experience transfers readily to rimfire, where do you stand on positive compensation and rimfire and the question of a "stopped muzzle"?

 

[Mystic Precision]

If the last shot doesn't represent the next, it just doesn't matter. rimfire ammo varies massively within the same lot and even the same box. The best I can get is the average of the average and hope that fits my needs.

For centerfire, I am a firm believer in positive compensation and why I am not an advocate of ES/SDs and testing at 100yds representing performance way out there.

The only true arbitor of all this is a paper target at distance... not close but as far as you can shoot. For centerfire, my final testing is at 1000yds cause that is as far as I compete. For rimfire, it is 400m cause that is as far as I can assume any degree of consistency.

Jerry

 

[Longstud]

You're like a dog with a bone.

While I've never seen a BR match, let alone shot in one or even seen any BR rifle other than those I've had, I can tell you that your understanding of rimfire BR competition has considerable room for improvement. Although not nearly as widespread in Canada as it is south of the border, there are different categories of competition in the discipline. Among the different classes in the popular ARA events, for example, are junior and factory.

Factory class rifles used in ARA must be available with an MSRP less than $1000. No modifications are allowed to the firearm or stock, except to the trigger mechanism. This means factory rimfire rifles such as those made by CZ, Ruger, and Savage are commonly used. The use of one-piece rests are not allowed in factory contests. ARA factory shooters are often new to BR shooting and for a variety of reasons don't invest in open class rifles, where almost anything goes, including one-piece rests that cost more than factory rifles.

Despite your claim above, the winners of factory ARA events can say with honesty that they won with factory rifles that don't cost a lot of money, often shooting random lots of ammo on bipods or inexpensive two piece rests.

Finally, the idea that reading the wind is simple, it's not. Factory shooters typically find they are weak in this area. Serious BR shooters often use as many as four sets of flags out to 50 yards, and even then can be flummoxed by tricky winds. Constant practice is a must, not a luxury.

Let go of your mistaken idea that rimfire benchrest is all about buying accuracy. If BR were easy, everyone could do it. Indeed, no one in any discipline shoots well without developing skills that are never innate. No one shoots well without the learning that comes from experience. As Toolman put it so well above, "you cant buy anything. You want to win/compete in any discipline you have to earn it."

Now, please let go of the bone.

Wow. So now we have a member referred to as a dog. Well a step up from what you referred me too. You openly admit to never having competed or even seen a match but act like ur the rimfire god! You chastise anyone if they don’t agree with you, yet you post misleading info about things you haven’t any idea about. Target shapes,sizes and distances in ORPS and CRPS for example were all wrong! Guess you didn’t look that up on the internet, or did and seen I actually knew what Iposted. Hence the lack of a belittling response.I can look up some big words for my next post if you’d like but I’m just who I am. I have competed and won medals in many shooting disciplines. I can send you pics of the medals, trophies,cups and plaques if you’d like.

 

[grauhanen]

Wow. So now we have a member referred to as a dog.

Wow? Don't be alarmed over the words; be more concerned with your comprehension. No one is being referred to as a dog. Even schoolboys are expected to be able to understand the difference between a comparison "You're like a dog" and a statement of fact "You're a dog".

By way of explanation, like is a preposition that means similar to. For example, if someone said "You are like an old lady," they wouldn't mean they are imagining you in granny clothing. "Like a dog with a bone" is a figure of speech for being relentless or persistent.

But seriously, enough of this. This can't be good for you. Don't be like a dog with a bone. Since my posts seem to make you apoplectic, please stop reading them.

 

[TheWhole9Yards]

I've a CZ 457 Varmint MTR and am wondering about barrel cleaning.

I shoot the same rifle, I find after about 400-500 rounds there is a noticeable growth in group size when running SK ammunition. I usually bore snake the barrel and inspect/clean the chamber/chamber mouth. I haven't found value in running a brush and patches as of yet. After that it will take about 20 rounds for things to settle in and its good to go. I like to do this a week before a match and get out to the range a couple of times to shoot groups and know what its doing, and shoot the match with the rifle in that known condition. Its not a perfect science by any stretch, but it allows me to be confident in the rifle and reduce any new variable into the equation during a match. I would under no circumstances want to clean the bore during a match.

As you've seen in this thread I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution. As long as you use the proper technique and equipment I don't think you can overclean your bore either, so find what works for you and do that.

 

[Longstud]

Wow? Don't be alarmed over the words; be more concerned with your comprehension. No one is being referred to as a dog. Even schoolboys are expected to be able to understand the difference between a comparison "You're like a dog" and a statement of fact "You're a dog".

By way of explanation, like is a preposition that means similar to. For example, if someone said "You are like an old lady," they wouldn't mean they are imagining you in granny clothing. "Like a dog with a bone" is a figure of speech for being relentless or persistent.

But seriously, enough of this. This can't be good for you. Don't be like a dog with a bone. Since my posts seem to make you apoplectic, please stop reading them.

Wow? Your LIKE a ballerina. Dance around everything and mold it to your liking. You never responded to having no clue about the targets sizes after posting, The targets are sqaure 4"-8" and shot between 100 and 300 yards. WRONG but lets no respond to that. Lets have a grammar lesson cuz you have all day for looking up big fancy words that the majority have no idea what they mean. OOooh google synonyms, Wow LIKE ur so smart. This is good for me! I actually love it. As youve previously mentioned, just block me. But that WOOD(purposely) not fulfill my requirement for propitiation. Namely MYSELF haha. Oh and it was refreshing for me when you admitted of never competing. Coming from someone who commands approbation, I found it really comical. Talk about a pot calling a kettle black. Im sure a response will follow but probably tomorrow as its past ur bedtime Im sure.

 

[grauhanen]

If the last shot doesn't represent the next, it just doesn't matter. rimfire ammo varies massively within the same lot and even the same box. The best I can get is the average of the average and hope that fits my needs.

For centerfire, I am a firm believer in positive compensation and why I am not an advocate of ES/SDs and testing at 100yds representing performance way out there.

The only true arbitor of all this is a paper target at distance... not close but as far as you can shoot. For centerfire, my final testing is at 1000yds cause that is as far as I compete. For rimfire, it is 400m cause that is as far as I can assume any degree of consistency.

Jerry

Your observatioon in a previous post in this thread confirms my own sense that even with top tier ammo, at least the lots that are made available in Canada, are not without flaws. It probably means the very best lots are not common and certainly not plentiful. This forces even those who lot test to expect most boxes to have one or more flawed rounds, the strays that marr otherwise good results. That leaves us to seek out the best of the better-than-average lots, if not exactly as you put it -- the "best of the worst".

What estimate can you offer for how much a tuner improves the perforance of ammo that's at best average? For example, at distances where results are obtainable, will it shrink groups by as much as 20 - 25%? Or less? Or more?

 

[*lawrence]

Please stop.

This was a really good thread, let's stay on topic.

 

[Buck1950]

Wish the old ladies would take their cat-fights to a different thread.
I'd like to see some valid data supporting the two sides of this discussion - 'Clean a lot' and 'Clean when accuracy falls'. I can post lots of anecdotes but I don't want to shoot hundreds of rounds to find that it F-s my barrels.

 

[OkayShooter]

Please stop.

This was a really good thread, let's stay on topic.

Yes noticed the constant pissing match between the 3. They just need to be adults and ignore each other.

I just bought a Anchutz 64 and I need to learn alot. As alot of my 22s in just shoot till they fail to fire. Not too worried about accuracy other than steel plate accuracy.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Your observatioon in a previous post in this thread confirms my own sense that even with top tier ammo, at least the lots that are made available in Canada, are not without flaws. It probably means the very best lots are not common and certainly not plentiful. This forces even those who lot test to expect most boxes to have one or more flawed rounds, the strays that marr otherwise good results. That leaves us to seek out the best of the better-than-average lots, if not exactly as you put it -- the "best of the worst".

What estimate can you offer for how much a tuner improves the perforance of ammo that's at best average? For example, at distances where results are obtainable, will it shrink groups by as much as 20 - 25%? Or less? Or more?

My experience including several rifles and barrels, a few tuners and weights, various ammo types and lots.. testing at 100yds to over 300....

A tuner cannot make a bad barrel or bad ammo shoot well...

The only thing it can do is help make a good 'system' work with quality match ammo to the LIMITS of that ammo. This assumes the system has the capacity to shoot better then the ammo. So far, I have not found any ammo that would exceed the accuracy potential of the rifle/barrel... if you can find ammo that is consistently awesome, buy it all!!!

In centerfire, you adjust the ammo to work with the barrel. In rimfire, you make the barrel work with the ammo on hand through the use of a tuner.

But that tuner cannot remove the flyers inherent in any batch of ammo.



I have shot numerous 10rds groups at 100yds with this lot of Lapua XACT through this system. The trend repeats time and again... the core of the group ( 8 to 9 rds) will land sub 1" (in the 8's). However, there is almost always 1 (sometimes 2) shot that is way out... and the distance away and direction can vary a bunch.

In another rifle which averages right around 1", same thing... core is around 1", flyers 1 or 2 per 10rds is way off in lala land and can go anywhere on that target. However, the flyers will usually be contained within the 7 ring ... other types/lots might toss them further away... so this lot of XACT is still 'better' then others.

I know these shots are flyers cause they do not agree with the conditions shot in and the follow up shot using the same hold, falls neatly into the group. I have circled them on the target. There is no rhyme or reason for the location.

So to answer your question directly, a tuner will not make the ammo shoot any better.. why shooters constantly complain their results are not consistent even with a tuner and top grade gear. If they just increase the number of rds and number of groups fired and overlay their results, I bet, they will see that the combo is working within the extremes of the flyers....and the lower the grade of ammo, the higher the number and wider the dispersion of these flyers.

The search continues...

Jerry

 

[grauhanen]

Thanks, Jerry. Your remarks about tuner limitations coincide with my views.

Tuners are not a panacea, an quick and easy fix for barrels and ammo that aren't already good. They certainly don't turn inconsistent ammo into something else. Their best contribution is with very good barrels with very consistent ammo and under consistent shooting conditions.

Your comments about ammo limitations are also sound. Very few lots will be even almost entirely consistent. Those lots that don't have one or more strays in each box are few and far between.

 

[Longstud]

My experience including several rifles and barrels, a few tuners and weights, various ammo types and lots.. testing at 100yds to over 300....

A tuner cannot make a bad barrel or bad ammo shoot well...

The only thing it can do is help make a good 'system' work with quality match ammo to the LIMITS of that ammo. This assumes the system has the capacity to shoot better then the ammo. So far, I have not found any ammo that would exceed the accuracy potential of the rifle/barrel... if you can find ammo that is consistently awesome, buy it all!!!

In centerfire, you adjust the ammo to work with the barrel. In rimfire, you make the barrel work with the ammo on hand through the use of a tuner.

But that tuner cannot remove the flyers inherent in any batch of ammo.

View attachment 613856

I have shot numerous 10rds groups at 100yds with this lot of Lapua XACT through this system. The trend repeats time and again... the core of the group ( 8 to 9 rds) will land sub 1" (in the 8's). However, there is almost always 1 (sometimes 2) shot that is way out... and the distance away and direction can vary a bunch.

In another rifle which averages right around 1", same thing... core is around 1", flyers 1 or 2 per 10rds is way off in lala land and can go anywhere on that target. However, the flyers will usually be contained within the 7 ring ... other types/lots might toss them further away... so this lot of XACT is still 'better' then others.

I know these shots are flyers cause they do not agree with the conditions shot in and the follow up shot using the same hold, falls neatly into the group. I have circled them on the target. There is no rhyme or reason for the location.

So to answer your question directly, a tuner will not make the ammo shoot any better.. why shooters constantly complain their results are not consistent even with a tuner and top grade gear. If they just increase the number of rds and number of groups fired and overlay their results, I bet, they will see that the combo is working within the extremes of the flyers....and the lower the grade of ammo, the higher the number and wider the dispersion of these flyers.

The search continues...

Jerry

Do you weight sort or check rim thickness or case length. In the past I did rim thickness checks but found with the upper tier ammo it was pretty much a big waste of time. However I did find positive results with weighing rounds but its time consuming and for our type of shooting not worth the effort in my opinion. By the way, N in AN is not required when the following word does not start with a vowel. Haha I know you will get it .