The headspace may be perfectly normal, and you can still get this phenomenon with too-light loads. Eagleye.
Primers Backing Out When Fired - Problem
- Thread starter waynewjw
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The headspace may be perfectly normal, and you can still get this phenomenon with too-light loads. Eagleye.
waynewjw
CGN Regular
Gonna Try It
So at this point, I've got 50 loads reloaded in 0.1 gr increments from 55.5 to 56.4 @ 5 rounds for each 0.1 gr. I'm going to shot one of the light loads first and see what the result is to the case. If primer doesn't back out, neck isn't all sooty, I figure I can carry on.
If primer still backs out and/or sooty neck, then I will shot the 56.4 gr. bullet. If all is well, then I carry on. If not, back to the drawing board. Re-do some new cases working on the headspace issue (sooty neck) and up the load (primers popping out) and back to the range.
At this point I have hopefully resolved my problem and can now focus on building the "perfect" load
So at this point, I've got 50 loads reloaded in 0.1 gr increments from 55.5 to 56.4 @ 5 rounds for each 0.1 gr. I'm going to shot one of the light loads first and see what the result is to the case. If primer doesn't back out, neck isn't all sooty, I figure I can carry on.
If primer still backs out and/or sooty neck, then I will shot the 56.4 gr. bullet. If all is well, then I carry on. If not, back to the drawing board. Re-do some new cases working on the headspace issue (sooty neck) and up the load (primers popping out) and back to the range.
At this point I have hopefully resolved my problem and can now focus on building the "perfect" load
Well - For the powder and bullets expended, you're better off with larger increments (ie 0.5 gr) and a larger range. Your current range of 0.9 gr is relatively narrow - you may miss the sweet spot entirely. But its your first experience at reloading, so have fun.
I found an old set of Lyman rifle dies. In the instructions, it advises to have the die adjusted to just kiss the shellholder - so there is a good chance your additional half turn is way too much. Adjust the die in increments, as stated in my previous post. When you get the brass to chamber, add another 1/6 of turn for some margin. Given that your brass is undersize, you may still continue to get soot on the necks with your proposed loads.
BTW - Sizing your brass relatively tight to the chamber improves brass longevity, and gives better accuracy. If you really want to max out on the accuracy potential, try another bullet weight. Rifles will typically "tune" to a particular bullet weight.
I found an old set of Lyman rifle dies. In the instructions, it advises to have the die adjusted to just kiss the shellholder - so there is a good chance your additional half turn is way too much. Adjust the die in increments, as stated in my previous post. When you get the brass to chamber, add another 1/6 of turn for some margin. Given that your brass is undersize, you may still continue to get soot on the necks with your proposed loads.
BTW - Sizing your brass relatively tight to the chamber improves brass longevity, and gives better accuracy. If you really want to max out on the accuracy potential, try another bullet weight. Rifles will typically "tune" to a particular bullet weight.
you see every book says something els/ best way is too test to see what CASE/BULLET/POWDER/PRIMER your rifle likes/ buy small amounts of each primer/case/bullets and test your powder (H4831) with them/ thats what i started doing when got into reloading
waynewjw
CGN Regular
So Who Do You Follow?
If I'm accurately reading the knowledge gained from you guys, it is perhaps "better" to follow the amounts of powder used for a particular bullet, by charging that load as per the "powder" mfg. as opposed to going with perhaps more general info from the Lyman, Lee, etc. manual.
And I've definitely gathered the "experimental" process of reaching that "perfect" load. This is the reason I decided to get into reloading, the fun process of working through powders and loads to get the "cloverleaf" group.
If I'm accurately reading the knowledge gained from you guys, it is perhaps "better" to follow the amounts of powder used for a particular bullet, by charging that load as per the "powder" mfg. as opposed to going with perhaps more general info from the Lyman, Lee, etc. manual.
And I've definitely gathered the "experimental" process of reaching that "perfect" load. This is the reason I decided to get into reloading, the fun process of working through powders and loads to get the "cloverleaf" group.
Eagle eye, you have baffled me. If you've got a casing headspaced on the shoulder with let's say zero clearance between the case head and bolt face, how can the primer protrude beyond? I can see the logic behind this if weak charges and under size cases are used which are likely the cause behind the op's issues. I can also see the logic behind sloppy headspacing and heavy charges looking normal, as the case stretches at the web pushing the case head firmly against the bolt face. But snug headspacing doesn't allow any room for the primer to protrude beond the case head as far as I can figure.
I know if I stand in an innertube on the floor and jump as lightly or as hard as I can my feet will never protrude past the bottom of the tube.
I know if I stand in an innertube on the floor and jump as lightly or as hard as I can my feet will never protrude past the bottom of the tube.
"Eagle eye, you have baffled me. If you've got a casing headspaced on the shoulder with let's say zero clearance between the case head and bolt face, how can the primer protrude beyond?"
Assume the shoulder of the case is solid against the chamber shoulder. Zero headspace.
As in a fired case that is primed but not sized at all.
Fire the primer. The explosion will drive the case forward, setting the shoulder back, and leave the primer protruding. Same thing happens if loaded round is under-loaded.
You can try the primed case trick in the basement.
Assume the shoulder of the case is solid against the chamber shoulder. Zero headspace.
As in a fired case that is primed but not sized at all.
Fire the primer. The explosion will drive the case forward, setting the shoulder back, and leave the primer protruding. Same thing happens if loaded round is under-loaded.
You can try the primed case trick in the basement.
I did not read all of this thread, however; cross reference your load with other reloading manuals. Your load could be less than the lightest or off the chart from other reloading manuals. Maybe get a Nosler or Sierra reloading manual, I think that they are the greatest. That's my 2 cents.
There's an old adage about shooting light loads in bottle neck cases.
The gist of it is, keep those cases seperate from your cases used for regular loading.
What happens is the cases used for your light loads will shorten, with every light load.
If you then use those shortened cases with a full power load, the excess head space could rupture the case.
The gist of it is, keep those cases seperate from your cases used for regular loading.
What happens is the cases used for your light loads will shorten, with every light load.
If you then use those shortened cases with a full power load, the excess head space could rupture the case.
I now can see the logic behind that, light load means the case doesnt seal against the chamber walls, gas slips rearward between case and chamber, pressure builds between the boltface and casehead, being that the casehead has a greater surface area than the bullet the case is pushed ahead eventhough pressure is equal all around... that make sense to me now. Am I on the right track....?
waynewjw
CGN Regular
Casing Sizes and Headspace
So. at this point am I correct in assuming that if I have the resizing die meet with the up-stroked shell case holder, and resize a case which doesn't fit, the next step is to turn it down 1/8 of a turn and repeat until the case fits into the rifle. At this point do I assume that I've eliminated any head-space issues?
So. at this point am I correct in assuming that if I have the resizing die meet with the up-stroked shell case holder, and resize a case which doesn't fit, the next step is to turn it down 1/8 of a turn and repeat until the case fits into the rifle. At this point do I assume that I've eliminated any head-space issues?
No, The shell holder and die combo may be out of spec. If you can take the firing mechanism out of your bolt. Put the sized case in the chamber and close the bolt. You should feel some pressure when you close the bolt. If the bolt flops down by gravity alone you have headspace problems. Adjust die until you get minimum feel on cartridge. Brass is funny and some cases may be harder to close then others due to hardness variations causing differential stretching. Adjust to a happy medium. Next reloading may require further adjustment as cases work harden.
NormB
waynewjw
CGN Regular
Today's Shooting Results
So in the previous posts I mentioned that I had loaded 50 rounds in groups of 5 with 0.1 gn increments. And after all of the posts, I still had to wonder if primers were going to back out, and if I had to much head space.
I must say that I was pleased with the results, they were better than expected. The primers did not back out on any of the rounds with powder loads from 56.5 to 56.4 gns. So the increase in powder resolved the issue of primers backing out.
There was a bit of soot around the neck, decreasing in bullets as the gns. went up, I'm assuming allowing to quicker expansion of the case from more powder. The amount of soot was not much but it tells me I still have to adjust my dies some to eliminate this issue.
The groups ranged from 2 7/8" down to 1 1/8" as follows - 3-shot groups @ 100 yds:
56.5 gns = 1 3/4"
56.6 gns = 1 5/8"
56.7 gns = 2 7/8"
56.8 gns = 1 1/4"
56.9 gns = 1 1/8"
57.0 gns = 1 3/4"
57.1 gns = 1 3/4"
57.2 gns = 2"
57.3 gns = 1 7/8"
57.4 gns = 2"
So the sweet spot could be 56.8-.9 gns, but with adjustment to the headspace I may be starting the process over again.
.270 caliber, Federal 210 Large Rifle Primers, Federal Factory fired ammo, 130 gr. Nosler Accupoint bullet.
And the experiment will move on. I will try post some photo's over the next day or so if I can free up the time.
Cheers
So in the previous posts I mentioned that I had loaded 50 rounds in groups of 5 with 0.1 gn increments. And after all of the posts, I still had to wonder if primers were going to back out, and if I had to much head space.
I must say that I was pleased with the results, they were better than expected. The primers did not back out on any of the rounds with powder loads from 56.5 to 56.4 gns. So the increase in powder resolved the issue of primers backing out.
There was a bit of soot around the neck, decreasing in bullets as the gns. went up, I'm assuming allowing to quicker expansion of the case from more powder. The amount of soot was not much but it tells me I still have to adjust my dies some to eliminate this issue.
The groups ranged from 2 7/8" down to 1 1/8" as follows - 3-shot groups @ 100 yds:
56.5 gns = 1 3/4"
56.6 gns = 1 5/8"
56.7 gns = 2 7/8"
56.8 gns = 1 1/4"
56.9 gns = 1 1/8"
57.0 gns = 1 3/4"
57.1 gns = 1 3/4"
57.2 gns = 2"
57.3 gns = 1 7/8"
57.4 gns = 2"
So the sweet spot could be 56.8-.9 gns, but with adjustment to the headspace I may be starting the process over again.
.270 caliber, Federal 210 Large Rifle Primers, Federal Factory fired ammo, 130 gr. Nosler Accupoint bullet.
And the experiment will move on. I will try post some photo's over the next day or so if I can free up the time.
Cheers
This why it's important to consult as many data sources as possible. Yes, sometimes data maxes out where other data starts. This is not likely so much the powder as it is the test firearm. If you consult many sources, you will notice for a given powder and weight of bullet most of the data will max out within a few grains of each other. When you do see what is apparently an anomaly, it is likely due to the firearm not the powder. This is why it is important to start at the minimum loads. Until you are familiar with your particular firearm and how it reacts to a given load, you might find that you have one of those rifles that doesn't do book max very well.
First thing you want to do is see if you can get the same results the next time out. Reason I say this is the .1gr BEFORE your "sweet spot" looks mighty suspicious. Try this: now that you know these loads are safe in your gun, shoot them from the highest to lowest.
Wayne, what you have learned so far, is there is virtually no differnce in the accuracy of your outfit, between loads of 56.5 to 57.4.
One 3 shot group means next to nothing, in finding an accurate load.
You have good enough hunting accuracy, but your loads are a way lighter than I would hunt with a 270.
.1 of a grain is less than no difference! H4831 does not measure too well in my powder measure. I would think it was a miracle if I metered the powder out to within .1 grain. I have never tweaked my loads by checking the weight to bring them to the exact amount, other than what the measure throws, yet I have made 1 inch, five shot groups, with H4831 in more than one rifle in more than one calibre.
Most experienced hand loaders that I know, will vary their loads by nothing less than .5 grain, with a slow powder like H4831.
That old classic load we talk of, 60 grains, shot very well in thousands of 270 rifles it was used in.
You loaded 30 cartridges to find out what you could have learned with 9 to 12 cartridges.what works for me is I will load 3 cartridges 1 grain under max book value .I load 3 more one grain under that .and 3 more one below that .and 3 more one below that for a total of twelve cartridges .this gives me a 5 grain buffer from max load for the first three cartridges I find I learn two things this way ,a potential sweet spot and I get see any signs of excessive pressure .and I only burnt a small amount of powder .if the sweet spot appears to be in group # 3 of the 4 ,3cartridge groups with no signs of pressure I will then take that charge weight and vary it by .3 grains for several 3 cartridge groups (uaually 2 groups below and 2 above the charge weight) trying to fine tune the powder charge .when I get some thing I am happy with I then load several 5 cartridges groups to see if I have a repeatable load.
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