Pros and cons of fluting barrel

[guntech]

How many times do you have to make the same stztement in one thread... especially a wrong one... anyone who says fluting will not increase accuracy has obviously never tried to shoot out of an overheated barrel.... fluting the barrel on a rifle increases surface area and dissipates heat better.... it also reduces weight as a bonus... as for rigidity look up a few posts to see what Justben wrote....

5 times now...

Is it a wrong thread or a wrong statement?... and I don't remember commenting about rigidity.

There appears to be a huge difference in your perception of accuracy and mine... I believe my point is that fluting will never increase accuracy, and if it did all the short range Benchrest shooters would be having it done. That is where accuracy is measured in thousands of an inch and no expense is spared to obtain this accuracy level.

Fluting does reduce weight and with some people it looks cool... that's what fluting does... and if you take a barrel and flute it, you have not increased that barrels' rigidity... you have reduced it's weight, induced measurable differences within the bore, and not increased it's accuracy level, and possibly reduced it.

And this thread will continue I am sure...

 

[cody c]

How many times do you have to make the same stztement in one thread... especially a wrong one... anyone who says fluting will not increase accuracy has obviously never tried to shoot out of an overheated barrel.... fluting the barrel on a rifle increases surface area and dissipates heat better.... it also reduces weight as a bonus... as for rigidity look up a few posts to see what Justben wrote....

Ha, by the same logic, you could counter the "fluting is dumb" perspective with, all rifle barrels should be at least 3" in diameter, anything smaller reduces the strength, heat mass and will have tendencies to warping to some degree, anything smaller than this is weaker and can only be less accurate than a minimum 3" OD barrel, and no one should bother with them. is this thread dead yet?

 

[Superbrad]

Ha, by the same logic, you could counter the "fluting is dumb" perspective with, all rifle barrels should be at least 3" in diameter, anything smaller reduces the strength, heat mass and will have tendencies to warping to some degree, anything smaller than this is weaker and can only be less accurate than a minimum 3" OD barrel, and no one should bother with them. is this thread dead yet?

Everything you said is correct... If it was practical to carry and use then a 3" barrel would be beter than a 1", 2" etc....

 

[Headcase]

We're so close to page 8, don't stop now. But if you fellas keep getting upset it might end. I mentioned to my wife the idea of a 100 page thread and she gave me the "hmpft. That's nothing" retort. On the boards she frequents, pregnant women go on about pregnant celebrities, and a 100 page thread is nothing at all. She thinks I'm looking at #### right now. HA! Got her fooled. I don't mean to get Mr Guntech upset either. The fact that flutes are seldom seen on the benchrest line is an "indication" they don't promote anything. That's different from "proof." The proof is somewhere else, and one of the results is that benchrest folks don't bother with them, so we don't see them close to trophies. I did mention that earlier. Ok, how about those Greeks. Romans too. When they fluted the columns of those big things they built, they knew that it weakened them. But they did it anyway, and in the process added corresponding extra thickness to compensate for the flutes, and all to make the big guy pleased with the looks. Now when a major manufacturer flutes a barrel, they know that will reduce stiffness, and they know the moment of inertia too well. Bending, torquing, tensor and the myriad of applications of it. They flute anyway, and sort of do the same things they did with columns 2500 years ago. In their case, they are not removing material. From the perspective of the machinist and the consummer, material is removed, but from the designer's ulterior motive, material is added. They'll take a skinny barrel, want to stiffen it, but don't want too much extra weight, but a little extra stiffness. So adding raised ribs does it, and it's packaged to look like flutes, with cool parabolic ends, and it's money. They know there is a market for it. That my mind accepts. http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html Try what these fellas who earn a living shooting and making barrels have to say about it. You guys will have to do the next 92 pages without me. Maybe. The "308 for bear" ended. Damn......

 

[cody c]

We're so close to page 8, don't stop now. But if you fellas keep getting upset it might end. I mentioned to my wife the idea of a 100 page thread and she gave me the "hmpft. That's nothing" retort. On the boards she frequents, pregnant women go on about pregnant celebrities, and a 100 page thread is nothing at all. She thinks I'm looking at #### right now. HA! Got her fooled. I don't mean to get Mr Guntech upset either. The fact that flutes are seldom seen on the benchrest line is an "indication" they don't promote anything. That's different from "proof." The proof is somewhere else, and one of the results is that benchrest folks don't bother with them, so we don't see them close to trophies. I did mention that earlier. Ok, how about those Greeks. Romans too. When they fluted the columns of those big things they built, they knew that it weakened them. But they did it anyway, and in the process added corresponding extra thickness to compensate for the flutes, and all to make the big guy pleased with the looks. Now when a major manufacturer flutes a barrel, they know that will reduce stiffness, and they know the moment of inertia too well. Bending, torquing, tensor and the myriad of applications of it. They flute anyway, and sort of do the same things they did with columns 2500 years ago. In their case, they are not removing material. From the perspective of the machinist and the consummer, material is removed, but from the designer's ulterior motive, material is added. They'll take a skinny barrel, want to stiffen it, but don't want too much extra weight, but a little extra stiffness. So adding raised ribs does it, and it's packaged to look like flutes, with cool parabolic ends, and it's money. They know there is a market for it. That my mind accepts. http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html Try what these fellas who earn a living shooting and making barrels have to say about it. You guys will have to do the next 92 pages without me. Maybe. The "308 for bear" ended. Damn......

So... Your trying to keep a thread alive just to see how many pages you can get out of it, but not directly with the intention of finding any resolution or final answer perspectives.

Sounds a little bit like a T____ (fill in the blanks) we might have here.

 

[Headcase]

Ok. That was part of the fun. As for resolution, there will always be a difference of opinion, and a final answer should be obvious by now. The notion of flutes adding stiffness is likely born from all the corrugations we see in daily life. Like cardboard, plastic sheeting, the floor boards in your car, etc. The physics at work in those cases does not relate to flutes on a barrel. Here's the thing: a lot of the questions here have been asked a hundred times over on a hundred different other gun boards. The science at work can easily be researched quickly. Anyone can find almost any answer to anything in a few minutes. Blueing recipes to silencers. Anything. There is nearly no mystery to anything anymore. A final answer can be found in a hundred different places real quick, so really, why do two opposing parties continue to oppose. It's a forum. Someone comes around with a different view point, and it gets people considering things from different angles. That's what it's supposed to do. Before the internet people would actually meet and argue face to face, and come back the next night and do it all over again. It was called a forum then, and still is now. This is an electronic forum. Thanks Cody.

 

[shatthatkilledelvis]

As soon as I read the horse sh*t about Greek and roman columns, i got the urge to write a scathing retort. Better judgement prevailed and I decided not to waste more time on this thread.

Will a mod please lock this thread - it has nothing to do with Gunsmithing and it's making people stupid.

 

[kamlooky]

There was one chap that did a post on spiral fluting.
One particular nutz figured that the rifling was on the wrong side.......

 

[Superbrad]

5 times now...

Is it a wrong thread or a wrong statement?... and I don't remember commenting about rigidity.

There appears to be a huge difference in your perception of accuracy and mine... I believe my point is that fluting will never increase accuracy, and if it did all the short range Benchrest shooters would be having it done. That is where accuracy is measured in thousands of an inch and no expense is spared to obtain this accuracy level.

Fluting does reduce weight and with some people it looks cool... that's what fluting does... and if you take a barrel and flute it, you have not increased that barrels' rigidity... you have reduced it's weight, induced measurable differences within the bore, and not increased it's accuracy level, and possibly reduced it.

And this thread will continue I am sure...

Fact... fluting increases surface area of the barrel

Fact.... Increasing surface area helps dissipate heat

Fact.... a cooler barrel is more accurate than a hot barrel

Therefore, fluting does in fact increase accuracy by barrel helping keep the barrel cool...


Competition shooters don't use fluting because they are already have ultra thick barrels.... it gets to a point where fluting won't add value because your barrel is already thick enough to cool off easily between shots...

I don't know about you but my hunting trips can often involve many miles of walking.... I don't want to carry a 14 pound rifle..... so fluting is an option that helps make a hunting firearm more accurate....

 

[lejarretnoir]

.... so fluting is an option that helps make a hunting firearm more accurate....

I call Bravo Sierra on that statement.
Keeping a hunting firearm barrel cool is immaterial for one or two shots.

 

[Superbrad]

I call Bravo Sierra on that statement.
Keeping a hunting firearm barrel cool is immaterial for one or two shots.

Really.... then you have never been groundhog or coyote hunting...... One or two shots?....

 

[mg4201]

How many times do you have to make the same stztement in one thread... especially a wrong one... anyone who says fluting will not increase accuracy has obviously never tried to shoot out of an overheated barrel.... fluting the barrel on a rifle increases surface area and dissipates heat better.... it also reduces weight as a bonus... as for rigidity look up a few posts to see what Justben wrote....

Clearly you did not read ALL of what justben wrote. As an aside read what alberta tactical rifle wrote. I will paraphrase; the fluted barrel having less material will heat faster as well as cool faster. Heres a mind bender for you; why do hot barrels shoot less precisely than cool barrels?. Because at high temps the steel gets less rigid. Ever seen an mg barrel "droop"?. While i realise that no one is shooting their rifle barrel till its red hot the effect is there it is just smaller.

 

[Superbrad]

Clearly you did not read ALL of what justben wrote. As an aside read what alberta tactical rifle wrote. I will paraphrase; the fluted barrel having less material will heat faster as well as cool faster. Heres a mind bender for you; why do hot barrels shoot less precisely than cool barrels?. Because at high temps the steel gets less rigid. Ever seen an mg barrel "droop"?. While i realise that no one is shooting their rifle barrel till its red hot the effect is there it is just smaller.

Yes.... but the theory behind fluted barrels is that the cooling time between shots is sufficient... as long as it cools back down between shots the amount of time it takes to heat up is irrelevant.....

Ever notice what type / action of firearm is typically sold in a fluted barrel configuration?

 

[lejarretnoir]

Hey superbrad, I'm from Ontario too and have hunted both. What are you talking about as respect to accuracy? You don't need the absolute best gun for this and stating that fluting is a must have mod is hilarious!

Here's one of my coyote guns. A highly modified Husky Swede Mauser in 7.62x39. MOA guaranteed.

Let me ask, are you shooting groundhogs @ 1000yds?

 

[tiriaq]

Yes.... but the theory behind fluted barrels is that the cooling time between shots is sufficient... as long as it cools back down between shots the amount of time it takes to heat up is irrelevant.....

Interesting theory. Ever seen any actual numbers detailing how much the barrel heats with each shot, and how long it takes for it to return to the preshot ambient temperature? And how well the barrel shoots at what temperature? In the absence of actual data the theory is interesting but meaningless.

Ever notice what type / action of firearm is typically sold in a fluted barrel configuration?

Typically? As far as this thread goes, gussied up precision rifles?

Its really very simple - if the consumer wants it, most manufacturers will supply it. Does it make a difference? Sure, if the owner is pleased with it. Does it make an actual difference in the accuracy of a given rifle? Pretty darn hard to answer that one.

 

[JustBen]

Flutes don't do much for the accuracy, but they look freaking sweet

I'll say it again since we're beating this dead horse...

Let's take two barrels of equal WEIGHT, one being fluted, one not. The fluted one will be more rigid and will dissipate heat faster. In this situation, the fluted barrel is more likely to be the more accurate barrel.

Now, consider two barrels of equal DIAMETER, one being fluted, one not. The solid barrel will be heavier and more rigid. The fluted one will likely handle the heat better. In this situation, the solid barrel is more likely to be the more accurate of the two.

So, in summary, taking your rifle to the smith to have flutes cut will not improve accuracy. However, rebarrelling it with a fluted barrel could, but you're likely better off putting a better, heavier barrel on it. Barrel makers have essentially perfected the art of making a solid barrel. Technology with fluted barrels has some progress to make in this area.

The PRIMARY goal of any fluting done to a barrel is to make it look more aesthetically pleasing. I'm okay with admitting that.

In my opinion, the next breakthrough in barrel technology will come with the use of more advanced materials. Carbon technology is showing a lot of promise these days, and there is always that trickle down from high tech applications to other industries, including ours.

SO, that being said, can we all just put this argument to bed already? Some guys are gonna run fluted barrels, some aren't.

 

[remington jim]

p&c Of Fluting

My understanding of the subject:

Pro - Cools faster, lose some weight

Con - Barrel loses some rigidity

My opinion - A rigid barrel is more important unless you are firing multiple shots in quick succession. A varmint gun may benefit from fluting, but if your shooting slow fire bench rest type stuff I would not bother with flutes.

All depends on application.

Pls read post #76 and comment - thks RJ

 

[Superbrad]

Its really very simple - if the consumer wants it, most manufacturers will supply it. Does it make a difference? Sure, if the owner is pleased with it. Does it make an actual difference in the accuracy of a given rifle? Pretty darn hard to answer that one.

I will agree with this... But it works in theory... That being said, I do not own a fluted barrel rifle... I don't think it adds enough accuracy to the package to make it worthwhile... But I see the potential if you want to pay the extra so to speak...

 

[crazydave]

Fact... fluting increases surface area of the barrel

Fact.... Increasing surface area helps dissipate heat

Fact.... a cooler barrel is more accurate than a hot barrel

Therefore, fluting does in fact increase accuracy by barrel helping keep the barrel cool...


Competition shooters don't use fluting because they are already have ultra thick barrels.... it gets to a point where fluting won't add value because your barrel is already thick enough to cool off easily between shots...

I don't know about you but my hunting trips can often involve many miles of walking.... I don't want to carry a 14 pound rifle..... so fluting is an option that helps make a hunting firearm more accurate....

One major flaw to your logic which you don't seem to understand and can't seem to grasp is one you outline yourself in this post of yours.

If you take two barrels of the same OD and flute one of them there is now thinner metal on parts of the barrel.

These parts will dissipate heat quicker fore sure, but they will also heat quicker! and with the metal being thinner in these areas will distort quicker.

For a hunting rifle the only difference you will see with fluting is a loss in weight period!

Also if fired quickly in succession the thinner parts will expand more causing looser tolerences with the bullet than the thicker steel parts, THIS ALMOST ALWAYS CAUSES A LOSS IN ACCURACY AS IS EXPECTED.

If you like the looks of a fluted rifle and saving a couple ounces of weight tickles your fancy then flute your barrel by all means.

If you think it will make your rifle more accurate give your head a shake

 

[ciphery]

Are you sure the barrel loses rigidity ?

Absolutely! Think about how much rigidity is coming from the material that is being removed.

Q: Ever wonder why a snow machine belt is serrated?
A: So it will flex easier as it bends around the primary clutch then straightens out then bends around the secondary.....

A solid bull barrel is strongest, a fluted barrel is next, then the noodle.