PRS Match CDTSA Milo Range

[beltfed]

JoKa, my point is that the IPSC Black Badge primarily teaches IPSC rules and some shooting pointers.
The safety stuff really boils down to common sense, and isn't so much taught - the competitor has it or they don't.

People whining about basic rules and saying a simple requirement will no longer make the match enjoyable bothers me. It's extremely disrespectful to the club and those who put effort and money into making events happen.

I don't see it as being disrespectful, just debate. While I agree, that this particular point does seem a minor one, it and other small attributes add up. A seamingly innocuous decision for some might be a fairly important element to the match for others. I see it as a good thing to discuss all angles of a match, and a forum like this is an excellent medium to do it. It removes body language and inflection which is admittedly, not ideal.

Competitor inexperience is one reason why pistols are never holstered with a round in the chamber for my CQB matches. There are several Black Badge qualified participants and they don't complain and we don't have to worry about putting a novice shooter in a situation that is beyond their comfort level and that could lead to a mishap.

I've seen my share of Black Badge trained shooters who were clearly out of their depth at matches, but I get everyone has to start somewhere. I'm all for helping new shooters, but one of the issues with watering down a match to a such a degree that you don't trust the competitors with a loaded gun, is that it runs the risk of becoming an orientation shoot.
If you want to run an orientation for new shooters, that's awesome. If that is what a match becomes, then I guess you draw from the members or shooting community that wants that stuff.

The first thing that comes to my mind is "if you don't trust the competitor with safe fire and movement, why do you have a movement component in the match?"

Hats off to the match director for pulling this together I am sure there's a significant amount of work being done.

Agreed. That is something for sure that can't draw debate.

 

[onetwentyish]

JoKa, my point is that the IPSC Black Badge primarily teaches IPSC rules and some shooting pointers.
The safety stuff really boils down to common sense, and isn't so much taught - the competitor has it or they don't.



I don't see it as being disrespectful, just debate. While I agree, that this particular point does seem a minor one, it and other small attributes add up. A seamingly innocuous decision for some might be a fairly important element to the match for others. I see it as a good thing to discuss all angles of a match, and a forum like this is an excellent medium to do it. It removes body language and inflection which is admittedly, not ideal.



I've seen my share of Black Badge trained shooters who were clearly out of their depth at matches, but I get everyone has to start somewhere. I'm all for helping new shooters, but one of the issues with watering down a match to a such a degree that you don't trust the competitors with a loaded gun, is that it runs the risk of becoming an orientation shoot.
If you want to run an orientation for new shooters, that's awesome. If that is what a match becomes, then I guess you draw from the members or shooting community that wants that stuff.

The first thing that comes to my mind is "if you don't trust the competitor with safe fire and movement, why do you have a movement component in the match?"



Agreed. That is something for sure that can't draw debate.

Beltfed, thank you for this post, you conveyed all my thoughts very elegantly and with tact which is something I was having trouble with. Everything you said here is what I was trying to say, and instead I pissed some guys off by accident.

 

[onetwentyish]

Shibby, I seem to have stroked you the wrong way with that one remark, and I apoligize for that. It is not my intentions to put you folks who go to the undertaking of preparing such matches, down. I appreciate what you do for our community was not trying to upset you folks but rather show the other side of the coin that un-nessassary overbaring rules can do more harm than good for your match, and could cause people to loose interest.

I really want to come and participate in the event, but its hard to keep interest when the event is in my opinion being needlessly neutered and watered down.

A possible solution to this issue could be to only require mag removal of all firearms to do certain areas of any stage that may involve the more risky elements of movement, such as any climbing or similar activity. We should all be capable of firearms manipulation during standard movement, and any who demonstrate unsafe firearms handling could be DQ'ed, similar to 3 gun or one of the pistol shooting disciplines like fenceline said.

I think this would be the most tactful way to deal with the issue of movement while not holding back the guys who can move safely with a loaded firearm, and also keeping things safe where there is legitimate risk involved in taking up a particular shooting position.

Once again I apoligise for upsetting some of you, I suppose I should have looked at what I was saying from your perspectives before posting, but I didn't see or intend it as an ignorant and rude remark at the time, but I do see now how you guys recieved it.

 

[Shibby!]

I'm sure everybody at the club wants certain things, but the club rules have to be respected.

DQing a participant has it's own issues. Often these situtions don't go over well.

DQing a participant from having an accident doesn't cause that projectile to magically turn around and land safely in the ranges berm. Accidents, even from the most experience, can and do happen. These rules, for the time being, are implemented to stop all accidents. Trust doesn't do that.

As noted, attendance will not be an issue, so the majority have little issues with it or at least accept it. Slowing people down is relative as everybody has the same rules. There will be some very proficient shooters shooting quickly even when removing mags and bolting back.

Things may change in the future. Other ranges have different rules, like Lethbridge and Medicine Hat. At one point CDTSA may get there with Milo, but for the time being the rules are rules. You can either come out and enjoy a day of shooting with 25+ like minded shooters, or be at home practicing on your farm by yourself.

I have no involvment with planning either PRS or 3G events.

 

[beltfed]

DQing a participant from having an accident doesn't cause that projectile to magically turn around and land safely in the ranges berm. Accidents, even from the most experience, can and do happen. These rules, for the time being, are implemented to stop all accidents. Trust doesn't do that.

I would urge caution with that line of reasoning, as it is a slippery slope.

You cannot put in place measures to stop all (100%) accidents / incidents. That is true of a range as it is walking down the street.
What we do is place reasonable expectations or limits on something to lower the risk to an acceptable level.
You can do that in this case by training, pointing out the obvious with ACTS and ensuring safeties are applied or following with no movement with a loaded firearm.

If one discipline advocates that the later is the best way, it lends support to the argument that procedure should be followed with other disciplines.
If you accept that it is possible for a round to leave the range through a negligent discharge while moving with a safety on during a match, you must also accept that there exists that very same risk at the bench during business hours when a member goes to use the range on the weekend or during the week on their own, or during that same match while a shooter is positional shooting.

You soon start down the path to drawing conclusions in support of a ban on blue sky shooting, or banning shooting that is unsupervised.
The CDTSA went to extraordinary measures years ago by implementing a RSO course along with peculiar CFO demands to ensure the survival of Shepard. That was and (should) remain a unique case particular to that range.
IMHO/ymmv

 

[onetwentyish]

I would urge caution with that line of reasoning, as it is a slippery slope.

You cannot put in place measures to stop all (100%) accidents / incidents. That is true of a range as it is walking down the street.
What we do is place reasonable expectations or limits on something to lower the risk to an acceptable level.
You can do that in this case by training, pointing out the obvious with ACTS and ensuring safeties are applied or following with no movement with a loaded firearm.

If one discipline advocates that the later is the best way, it lends support to the argument that procedure should be followed with other disciplines.
If you accept that it is possible for a round to leave the range through a negligent discharge while moving with a safety on during a match, you must also accept that there exists that very same risk at the bench during business hours when a member goes to use the range on the weekend or during the week on their own, or during that same match while a shooter is positional shooting.

You soon start down the path to drawing conclusions in support of a ban on blue sky shooting, or banning shooting that is unsupervised.
The CDTSA went to extraordinary measures years ago by implementing a RSO course along with peculiar CFO demands to ensure the survival of Shepard. That was and (should) remain a unique case particular to that range.
IMHO/ymmv

This was also once again my opinion very well articulated. Thanks again belt fed!

 

[onetwentyish]

You can either come out and enjoy a day of shooting with 25+ like minded shooters, or be at home practicing on your farm by yourself.

Its not by myself most of the time. Got lots of friends to practice with, and staging the area is half the fun!

Best part is it just gets better and better because I don't have to tear it down after a day of use, just add more next time!

 

[armycat]

1) Speed dots - 50M dash to firing line, drop down to prone, 5 rounds at 100M, 5 rounds at 200M. The targets will be small F-class targets with scoring rings. 150 second time cap.

8) Running of the gongs - 2 rounds at 300M, 2 rounds at 400M, 2 rounds at 500M, 2 rounds at 400M, 2 rounds at 300M. 2 minute time cap.

What size are F class targets for stage 1 and gongs for stage 8?

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I am thinking 2MOA circles for the F Class targets. The 10 ring will be 1/2 moa and points value will go down from there. Don't take any of this as gospel, the COF could change going forward.

The gongs are 8" at 300, 10" at 400, and a 2/3 IPSC at 500M. The targets are on the generous size and the time limits are as well but this is kind of the point for a first match. I am sure the pros will be able to clean the stages no problem.

For those that haven't been out there it is always windy, like crazy windy.

 

[odsixer]

Can this be shot with a hinged floor plate or do we need a mag fed rifle?

 

[bsand]

Can this be shot with a hinged floor plate or do we need a mag fed rifle?

Your gonna have a disadvantage vs the 10 round magazines. So your gonna have to top up between shots. My rifle can only hold 6 rounds so it'll be interesting for sure!

 

[kombayotch]

 

[Shibby!]

Don't let equipment like that hold you back. Consider fun first, gear and scores second.

Ryan: I know things are a bit up in the air at the moment, but have they not ok'd any additional metal? If not, what's the hold up? Shrouds or additional steel and stands?

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

Pretty much all rifle types are welcome, there is a good amount of time on most stages so you should be able to reload a hinged floor plate. I think for the speed dots there will be a mandatory mag change, I can't decide yet.

I can't really speak for the club but I do think there will be more steel out there. It might not be there for May 7 but hopefully this year.

 

[Shibby!]

Would be nice to have more steel, more angles, more sizes, etc.

 

[Boomer454]

I'm very interested in attending this match. Sounds like it will be a lot of fun!
How, when, and to work can I give my entry fee to so I can be sure of a spot?

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

Been a few days since something happened.

The match is now up for registration on practiscore.com. Just search for CDTSA.

The fee is $20 for a member and $30 for a non-member.

Once registration is full I will be looking for some assistance in running the match so consider your self warned.

 

[dusticles]

Signed two of us up just now, didn't give an option to pay and was mandatory to fill in membership # so I left a few ***'s!

Also, I'm willing to help where needed if you need shooters to assist

 

[Kevin M.]

Signed up two. As mentioned, no payment option and just put N/A for member #.

Looking forward to seeing you guys at the shoot!

 

[Shibby!]

Been a few days since something happened.

The match is now up for registration on practiscore.com. Just search for CDTSA.

The fee is $20 for a member and $30 for a non-member.

Once registration is full I will be looking for some assistance in running the match so consider your self warned.

Page shows 30$, but an entry field for CDTSA membership. I assume that's where the 10$ savings come into play.

Now.... I'm going to be THAT guy, and say can I register and let you know of my CDTSA number later? I know my 2015 one, not 2016 yet.

Going to do it now either way and apologize after.. haha.