PX4 vs. Glock??

Of these two, I would choose Glock.

I don't really care for the trigger pull on the PX4 - but this is personal preference - and would choose a Glock instead. Also, Glock is really a workhorse - you can pump a whole pile of rounds through them and they just keep working. They are a simple enough design that you -the owner- can take them right apart to maintain and repair, plus they don't require a lot of fussing and lube. Low maintenance!

I've heard (although not tried out) that the 4th Generation Glocks have adjustable grips too which is great for personalizing the grip to you.
 
I wouldn't necessarily say functions better. The Glock has some great attributes that the HK or Beretta do not. One consistent trigger pull for one, no external safety to manipulate before, during, or after you shoot. Fewer parts/pieces, cheaper, greater availability of parts and service, and a better track record.

As for gunfights. I doubt many of us will ever come close to participating in one. That being the said, there are those who understand that a service pistol(or rifle) is still a tool designed for the protection of life. Regardless wether or not you see your firearms as a defensive tool. The fact remains, if your pistol is one that is well suited for life saving duty and is trusted by those that carry one in such circumstances. You can rest assured that you will enjoy many years/rounds of trouble free shooting. The same features and/or attributes that make a firearm well suited for professional work are also suitable and desirable for casual work.

TDC

Just because a police force chooses a pistol for general duty does not mean it will be enjoyable to shoot. Police pistols, in Canada, have no safety for a very obvious reason. They have hard trigger pulls because they want their personnel to know when they are about to kill someone.
Should everyone use a 5946 with a 12-14 lb trigger pull for recreational shooting. I would hope not. Or should people start flocking to the Ford dealerships to buy Crown Vics?
When you are spending your hard earned money on a pistol that you may shoot for several years make sure you will enjoy shooting it. As long as you clean it and don't bury it in mud for 2 years most pistols will be fine. Like I said before Glocks are reliable and boring. But everyone has an opinion.
 
Just because a police force chooses a pistol for general duty does not mean it will be enjoyable to shoot. Police pistols, in Canada, have no safety for a very obvious reason. They have hard trigger pulls because they want their personnel to know when they are about to kill someone.
Should everyone use a 5946 with a 12-14 lb trigger pull for recreational shooting. I would hope not. Or should people start flocking to the Ford dealerships to buy Crown Vics?
When you are spending your hard earned money on a pistol that you may shoot for several years make sure you will enjoy shooting it. As long as you clean it and don't bury it in mud for 2 years most pistols will be fine. Like I said before Glocks are reliable and boring. But everyone has an opinion.

Wow, your post is right full of fail. Let me start at the top. For starters the Glock pistol was designed to meet the Austrian military's requirements for a service pistol, not for any police force. Second, an enjoyable pistol to shoot is one that works without fail without being pampered or tuned prior to use. How a pistol "fits your hand" is complete BS and does nothing to improve ones skills. For all the folks who have purchased a pistol that "fits" there aren't that many who have the ability to make first round hits at any range up to and including 25 yards. If the pistol "fits" so well and the fit is so critical, then why do so many still spend the money to change out the sights or trigger or anything else in hopes of achieving greater "accuracy"? I hate to go off on a tangent here but I'll let you folks in on a secret. The pistol, no matter what make or model, is as accurate as it will ever be. It is you the operator and your skills that will determine just how much of that inherent accuracy will be achieved.

The heavy DA triggers often found on SERVICE pistols serve several purposes. The long heavy pull requires conscious thought on the operators part before the pistol will fire(think liability). Second, the long heavy DA also aids in reducing or eliminating negligent discharges attributed to short and light trigger pulls(again, think liability). A pistol with the hammer down(DA) is also inherently safer than an SA pistol with a manual safety. Furthermore, the need to operate said manual safety only adds to the manual of arms required to function an SA pistol. The DA/SA or "traditional double action" eliminates the need for the manual safety by permitting the operator the ability to "point and pull" right from the holster. The nature of the traditional double action then allows the user the advantages of both a short and light trigger pull on subsequent shots by operating in single action until the pistol is decocked. The down side is that the operator must learn two different trigger pulls, where the first shot(often the most important shot) is achieved through the heavy and long DA pull. The operator must also remember to use the decocker prior to holstering. The Glock or any other striker fired pistol eliminates all of the issues above without sacrificing any performance gains. With a 5.5lbs pull weight and a mere 0.5 inches of travel, the Glock trigger is more than adequate for both service/duty and recreational shooting. Add to that the very short(approximately 1/8th inch) reset, the low bore axis and the THREE INTERNAL PASSIVE SAFETIES that require no additional actions to operate; and you just might begin to understand why Glocks are popular.

As for "reliable and boring" I have to ask, what is so boring about a Glock? Is it the fact that you can't tinker with it? Perhaps its the plain black appearance or the lack of "custom" grips/sights/backstraps/triggers or internals? Maybe its the fact that they are reliable and that is what's boring?

TDC
 
TDC your posts are so informative it is difficult to find one observation you make that stands out. I particularly impressed with your observaton that shooters who buy handguns that fit them can't hit their targets with the first round out to 25 yards. Simply astonishing, you should really write a book. Next time you feel motivated to inform us all of our errors perhaps you might mention on what ranges you have observed this quality or lack thereof in shooting.

Take care

Bob
PS Don't most DA/SA pistols come with a safety? I know some come with decockers and I know of one that has both.
 
TDC your posts are so informative it is difficult to find one observation you make that stands out. I particularly impressed with your observaton that shooters who buy handguns that fit them can't hit their targets with the first round out to 25 yards. Simply astonishing, you should really write a book. Next time you feel motivated to inform us all of our errors perhaps you might mention on what ranges you have observed this quality or lack thereof in shooting.

Take care

Bob
PS Don't most DA/SA pistols come with a safety? I know some come with decockers and I know of one that has both.

Hey Bob! Well, I've witnessed such inabilities at all ranges I've attended. I'll admit I haven't seen everyone shoot, but it begs the question. If the "fit" is so important why do so many feel the need to tune triggers or change sights?? If the gun fits should it not be easier to shoot resulting in more hits on target? Perhaps missing the target with a comfortable pistol that "fits" makes missing less frustrating?

TDC
 
Hey Bob! Well, I've witnessed such inabilities at all ranges I've attended. I'll admit I haven't seen everyone shoot, but it begs the question. If the "fit" is so important why do so many feel the need to tune triggers or change sights?? If the gun fits should it not be easier to shoot resulting in more hits on target? Perhaps missing the target with a comfortable pistol that "fits" makes missing less frustrating?

TDC

I don't know. The first thing most Glock shooters do is change sights (something about cheap plastic sights that turns them off I guess) and replace trigger parts to get a decent but still mushy trigger pull.

I don't suppose in your observations you noted the nember of shooters who were shooting pistols they didn't like the fit of, that couldn't hit the target with their first round. Seems to me to be a rather difficult question to ask but you seem to have at least addressed those with guns thta fit comfortable in their hands.

As to proper fit you might be surprised how quickly one can acquire a decent sight picture quickly with a pistol that fits the hand just right. My M&P with the small grip insert allows me to drive my hand higher into the grip then teh large insert and the sights come to eye so much quicker.

If you think a light smooth trigger doesn't aid in accurate shooting you obviously haven't spent much time around Bullseye shooters or at the other end of the spectrum watched RCMP officers attempting qualify with their service pistols when shooting from 25 yards. You don't see many of the DAO S&W pistols used by the RCMP at Bullseye competitions and almost as few at IPSC matches. Come to think of it I haven't seen to many Glocks shooting Standard Division in IPSC either. I guess IPSC shooters haven't read your posts suggesting great triggers have little to do with accuracy.

Take Care

Bob
 
I don't know. The first thing most Glock shooters do is change sights (something about cheap plastic sights that turns them off I guess) and replace trigger parts to get a decent but still mushy trigger pull.

I don't suppose in your observations you noted the nember of shooters who were shooting pistols they didn't like the fit of, that couldn't hit the target with their first round. Seems to me to be a rather difficult question to ask but you seem to have at least addressed those with guns thta fit comfortable in their hands.

As to proper fit you might be surprised how quickly one can acquire a decent sight picture quickly with a pistol that fits the hand just right. My M&P with the small grip insert allows me to drive my hand higher into the grip then teh large insert and the sights come to eye so much quicker.

If you think a light smooth trigger doesn't aid in accurate shooting you obviously haven't spent much time around Bullseye shooters or at the other end of the spectrum watched RCMP officers attempting qualify with their service pistols when shooting from 25 yards. You don't see many of the DAO S&W pistols used by the RCMP at Bullseye competitions and almost as few at IPSC matches. Come to think of it I haven't seen to many Glocks shooting Standard Division in IPSC either. I guess IPSC shooters haven't read your posts suggesting great triggers have little to do with accuracy.

Take Care

Bob

Sorry for the late reply Bob, this thread got buried and I missed your response.

The factory plastic sights are usable but far from ideal, I agree that steel sights are good change from the factory ones. Note also, that the factory plastic sights are not tritium night sights. If you expect to shoot in low light/no light conditions you must have tritium sights.

As far as "fit" goes. I don't believe I've ever met anyone who admitted their pistol didn't "fit" right and attributed their poor marksmanship to said "fit". Regardless, it seems many strongly believe that "fit" is the most important factor and many have echoed that "fit" is what they looked for prior to purchasing a pistol. That being the norm, it would be safe to say that most are shooting a pistol that "fits" their hand. Again, with so many running a pistol with the proper "fit" I don't see too many who are capable of first round hits in a timely fashion.

acquiring a proper sight picture has more to do with ones grip than the "fit" of the pistol. If you watch any of the "instructional videos" online from the pros, you will see that regardless of what pistol they demonstrate with, their ability to make hits is unaltered. Obviously if you spend the majority of your time on one system more than the others your performance will reflect that. However, the fundamentals of handgun marksmanship are 100% transferable. For those who understand them, the results from system to system are remarkably similar.

I won't disagree that smooth light triggers don't aid in accuracy as they do. What many fail to take into account is the shooters ability. A smooth and light trigger is only as effective as the individual pulling it, or in many cases slapping or yanking it. That being said, the stock triggers on most pistols are more than adequate for the majority of disciplines. One should also keep in mind that the majority of pistols(especially those in production division) are service pistols, intended first and foremost to be reliable when defending life.

The RCMP S&W's have the worst trigger pull I have ever had the opportunity to experience(ok maybe not, the Hungarian FEG hi power copy was worse). I've also witnessed several folks consistently make hits with the same pistol and observed others with high end 1911's fail to hit the target. The altered variable in this situation that makes the difference is the shooter. With some exceptions as noted above, the factory triggers on pistols is not the culprit of missed shots.

As for the lack of Glocks in IPSC, I couldn't tell you. I suspect it is due to the belief that Glocks have bad triggers and thus would require trigger work which means they would not qualify for Standard division. I suspect it also has to do with the fact that many feel that Glocks are ugly and uncool. No one wants to shoot a plain, ugly black pistol that isn't respected.

The bullseye crowd is a different breed. The entire discipline is contrary to what a service pistol is designed and intended for. I'm sure most service pistols are capable of bullseye level accuracy, but the sights usually are not. The lack of Glocks or any other service pistol in bullseye is simply a case of the wrong tool for the wrong job.

TDC
 
As for the lack of Glocks in IPSC, I couldn't tell you. I suspect it is due to the belief that Glocks have bad triggers and thus would not qualify for Standard division without having trigger work done. I suspect it also has to do with the fact that many feel that Glocks are ugly and uncool. No one wants to shoot a plain, ugly black pistol that isn't respected.

There are lots of Glocks in IPSC, but primarily in the Production Division. If I recall they seem to do faily well when it comes to winning too.
 
The factory plastic sights are usable but far from ideal, I agree that steel sights are good change from the factory ones. Note also, that the factory plastic sights are not tritium night sights. If you expect to shoot in low light/no light conditions you must have tritium sights.

TDC

For no light you really need a flashlight TDC. Personally I don't care for tritium sights as for me they are difficult to pick up quickly against cardboard targets in the day light. Different strokes for different folks.

For any competition it is the archer not the arrow so I don't put much faith in basing what I shoot on what gun is winning. Right now the best competitive shooters in IPSC favour the Shadow. Savigny wins pretty much any event he enters with a stock Glock. The top competitive shooters live in a different world so basing your gun purchase on what they get paid to shoot doesn't make much sense to me.

Shooting compeitively is very much a personal sport. My advice to most shooters is to find a gun you like and can afford (ergonomics plays a major part in that decision) and go play and have fun and do the best you can. Practice as much as you can afford and be happy with the results.

Take Care

Bob
 
For no light you really need a flashlight TDC. Personally I don't care for tritium sights as for me they are difficult to pick up quickly against cardboard targets in the day light. Different strokes for different folks.

For any competition it is the archer not the arrow so I don't put much faith in basing what I shoot on what gun is winning. Right now the best competitive shooters in IPSC favour the Shadow. Savigny wins pretty much any event he enters with a stock Glock. The top competitive shooters live in a different world so basing your gun purchase on what they get paid to shoot doesn't make much sense to me.

Shooting compeitively is very much a personal sport. My advice to most shooters is to find a gun you like and can afford (ergonomics plays a major part in that decision) and go play and have fun and do the best you can. Practice as much as you can afford and be happy with the results.

Take Care

Bob

I do have a light and run it on my 17 all the time;). Lights aside, there are times where the ambient light level is adequate for target/threat identification but not for sight acquisition. Either way, the factory plastic sights suck.

I'm not sure if you're referencing my post when you say "The top competitive shooters live in a different world so basing your gun purchase on what they get paid to shoot doesn't make much sense to me." I never said that anyone should base their decision off what top end competitors use, I was merely illustrating the fact that the top shooters are capable of accurately shooting any system because they have a solid understanding of handgun marksmanship fundamentals.

As you posted above, its the shooter that makes the shot, not the gear. This is my point regarding "fit". Too many get wrapped around the axle about the "fit and feel" without the understanding that the fundamentals of handgun marksmanship are far more important. The best "feeling/fitting" gun will be a poor performer in the hands of an individual who fails to understand sight alignment, trigger squeeze and follow through.

The most important variable in shooting is the shooter.

TDC
 
Wow, your post is right full of fail. Let me start at the top. For starters the Glock pistol was designed to meet the Austrian military's requirements for a service pistol, not for any police force. Second, an enjoyable pistol to shoot is one that works without fail without being pampered or tuned prior to use. How a pistol "fits your hand" is complete BS and does nothing to improve ones skills. For all the folks who have purchased a pistol that "fits" there aren't that many who have the ability to make first round hits at any range up to and including 25 yards. If the pistol "fits" so well and the fit is so critical, then why do so many still spend the money to change out the sights or trigger or anything else in hopes of achieving greater "accuracy"? I hate to go off on a tangent here but I'll let you folks in on a secret. The pistol, no matter what make or model, is as accurate as it will ever be. It is you the operator and your skills that will determine just how much of that inherent accuracy will be achieved.

The heavy DA triggers often found on SERVICE pistols serve several purposes. The long heavy pull requires conscious thought on the operators part before the pistol will fire(think liability). Second, the long heavy DA also aids in reducing or eliminating negligent discharges attributed to short and light trigger pulls(again, think liability). A pistol with the hammer down(DA) is also inherently safer than an SA pistol with a manual safety. Furthermore, the need to operate said manual safety only adds to the manual of arms required to function an SA pistol. The DA/SA or "traditional double action" eliminates the need for the manual safety by permitting the operator the ability to "point and pull" right from the holster. The nature of the traditional double action then allows the user the advantages of both a short and light trigger pull on subsequent shots by operating in single action until the pistol is decocked. The down side is that the operator must learn two different trigger pulls, where the first shot(often the most important shot) is achieved through the heavy and long DA pull. The operator must also remember to use the decocker prior to holstering. The Glock or any other striker fired pistol eliminates all of the issues above without sacrificing any performance gains. With a 5.5lbs pull weight and a mere 0.5 inches of travel, the Glock trigger is more than adequate for both service/duty and recreational shooting. Add to that the very short(approximately 1/8th inch) reset, the low bore axis and the THREE INTERNAL PASSIVE SAFETIES that require no additional actions to operate; and you just might begin to understand why Glocks are popular.

As for "reliable and boring" I have to ask, what is so boring about a Glock? Is it the fact that you can't tinker with it? Perhaps its the plain black appearance or the lack of "custom" grips/sights/backstraps/triggers or internals? Maybe its the fact that they are reliable and that is what's boring?

TDC

Full of fail? I am very familiar with the long deliberate trigger pull and the reason for it. That's why I said the police want their officer's to know and realize when they are about to kill someone. Instead of being long winded and explain NDs and deliberate trigger pulls, I summed it up as above.
You highlighted my passage of police don't have safeties on their pistols? Were you disputing this because as far as I know all police pistols in Canada have no manual safety (aside from the odd small dept in Quebec).
You seem to take offence to my saying Glocks are boring. Glocks fit poorly in my hand, they feel cheap and like a plastic toy. It's like saying Taylor Made golf clubs are the best in the world and everyone should be able to shoot just as well with them. People have different grips styles, different hand sizes, different vision etc. When choosing a pistol and sinking $800+ into it why would you want something that you consider boring to shoot or look at? You are only shooting at an approved range not carrying it to protect your life.
Like I said before everyone has an opinion, thanks for yours.
 
And, by the way,

To anybody who would assert that the Glock is not a viable and popular choice for IPSC, I would refer you to the USPSA.

The world does not end at the 49th parallel.
 
TDC lol you have been quite the little thread terrorist :D lol you're just taking on anyone who gets in your way! right on
 
Full of fail? I am very familiar with the long deliberate trigger pull and the reason for it. That's why I said the police want their officer's to know and realize when they are about to kill someone. Instead of being long winded and explain NDs and deliberate trigger pulls, I summed it up as above.
You highlighted my passage of police don't have safeties on their pistols? Were you disputing this because as far as I know all police pistols in Canada have no manual safety (aside from the odd small dept in Quebec).
You seem to take offence to my saying Glocks are boring. Glocks fit poorly in my hand, they feel cheap and like a plastic toy. It's like saying Taylor Made golf clubs are the best in the world and everyone should be able to shoot just as well with them. People have different grips styles, different hand sizes, different vision etc. When choosing a pistol and sinking $800+ into it why would you want something that you consider boring to shoot or look at? You are only shooting at an approved range not carrying it to protect your life.
Like I said before everyone has an opinion, thanks for yours.

I'll address the bold sections in order.

Law enforcement or even citizens with the proper mindset and training do not "shoot to kill". They shoot to neutralize the threat regardless of the physical outcome, whether that be a hole in the arm/leg or a hole in the head. More to the point, most who are shot with a handgun survive, there is no guarantee that you will "kill someone" if you engage them with any firearm let alone a handgun.

I fail to see how a "cheap feeling/toy like" pistol has anything to do with reliability or function? Glocks have proven to be very reliable and a workhorse. Again, the "fit" is a trivial portion of the equation but is often the focus when deciding on which pistol to buy. This is further illustrated by the next portion of your post. "People have different grips styles". That is pure BS. There is a standard grip that will yield the greatest performance over all the rest. This grip does not change from person to person or pistol to pistol. Clearly most fail to understand this fundamental or simply don't know. The leading thumbs/forward thumbs grip has been the preferred grip for well over 10 years now. Varying grip styles from shooter to shooter is an excuse to validate the "importance" of "fit".

As for hand size. Unless your hands are smaller than an 11 year old girls, there is a zero issue with standard duty pistols. The hand size issue is nothing more than an excuse to again validate the "importance" of "fit".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2rKj4eZgo&playnext_from=TL&videos=hQ2K8L2jUOE

I'm not sure what to say regarding a "boring and ugly" pistol. Could you explain why or how shooting a Glock is boring? Is it the lack of external controls that bores you or the reliability? I'm confused.

With regards to ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Aesthetic appearance has no influence on function or ease of use. I'm a practical shooter, I run gear that solves problems and/or aids in performance without inducing more problems. That being said, if you don't want a pistol that you feel is ugly, that's your choice. Keep in mind, that the vast majority of polymer pistols are nearly identical in external appearance to Glocks, yet I don't hear many saying they're ugly. The S&W M&P, Steyr M9, Springfield XD, Beretta PX4, Ruger SR9 all look surprisingly like a Glock..

TDC
 
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