Question about ammo and barrel

[grauhanen]

The current thread "CZ 457 LPR Match Chamber" risks being diverted to a different topic. After a few back and forth posts, I suggested to Shorty that a new thread be created to discuss that different topic. Perhaps the topic can be discussed here.

The CZ 457 LPR Match Chamber thread referred to is here https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/cz-457-lpr-match-chamber.2531993/#post-20865682

 

[grauhanen]

There seems to be two different points. One is heard less often, the other repeated by all kinds of folks (myself included a few years ago). Of course a lot of things rimfire get repeated over the years but that doesn't necessarily make them true. As an example, the idea that for accuracy performance barrels will "prefer" a certain "lot speed" was often repeated over a decade ago. Currently few if any serious RFBR shooters believe it, shooting the best lots regardless of "lot speed".

The first view is that good rifles will shoot good, consistent ammo well. Put another way, if the ammo is good, a good rifle will shoot it well. It's important to remember that not all lots will shoot equally well because not all lots are equally consistent. In other words some ammo lots of the same variety (e.g. Tenex, Midas, or CX) are more consistent in quality than others, making them "better" lots.

Of course not all rifle barrels are equal and as a result not all barrels will shoot the same ammo equally well. This is why an inexpensive rifle will not shoot like an expensive one, even when using the best ammos.

The other view, often repeated on rimfire forums, is that each good barrel, shoots different lots differently. They will shoot some lots well and others not so well. In other words they will "like" or prefer some lots, producing better results with them on average.

According to this view, a lot that doesn't shoot well in one barrel may shoot well in another. That is to say, each barrel will shoot some lots better than others. Lots that don't shoot well in one barrel may shoot well in another. It's a matter of matching the lot to the barrel. It's not a question of ammo consistency and quality.

 

[grauhanen]

Shorty, if I've got something wrong with the summary above, please post any changes you think are important.

Data and evidence related to good barrels and match quality .22LR ammo are welcome. If anyone has any to share it would be helpful and valuable. Anecdotal reports, of course, have different value.

 

[struff55]

for the sake of conversation speculating how a rifle will shoot is just that a high end rifle may or may not all ammo well a inexpensive may shoot as good as the expensive rifle until each specimen is actually shot and tested it is just conversation

 

[grauhanen]

for the sake of conversation speculating how a rifle will shoot is just that a high end rifle may or may not all ammo well a inexpensive may shoot as good as the expensive rifle until each specimen is actually shot and tested it is just conversation

If there's confusion from the posts above, I apologize. The conversation is about good rifles/barrels and good ammo. Perhaps the question may be made clearer if it's put the following way.

Do good barrels shoot all good quality consistent ammo well? Good ammo is good ammo in good barrels.

or

Do good rifles "like" lots that may not shoot well in other barrels? Each barrel will prefer some lots of good ammo but others. Lots that don't do well in one good barrel may do well in another good barrel.

 

[Mr Bill]

We are blessed…or challenged with the fact that there are so many variables in the world of .22LR accuracy.

If memory serves me well I recall taking a math course in university titled ‘Permutations and Combinations’ dealing with the calculations of probabilities of outcomes. I barely passed the exam, I’m not a smart guy, but I realized I wasn’t gifted enough to beat the odds at the casinos so I never gambled.

What I’m bringing to the table is that there are literally thousands of variables which result in millions of combinations in the outcomes of the game of .22LR accuracy.
….And that is why we will always have a topic to discuss on CGN and other forums to the end of time, or 4.00am if you can’t sleep and are addicted to New Posts on CGN….

I’m too old to repeat all my shooting tests of the past and now when I stumble upon a rifle and ammo combo that really shines together I just accept it and don’t worry about the why anymore. Same as when a hot chick says she loves me I don’t question why, just say please and thank you….Love, weather and .22LR accuracy can change unexpectedly and so we can either fret about it or just move on. I leave the research and speculation to those younger and more gifted than me. lol
….I truly respect and appreciate those that are on the accuracy quest and often post to share their findings…..something to read at 4am for an old fart like me. Cheers!!

 

[Leuchtkafer]

You have everything you need to figure it out for yourself. Get to work.

 

[_Shorty]

There seems to be two different points. One is heard less often, the other repeated by all kinds of folks (myself included a few years ago). Of course a lot of things rimfire get repeated over the years but that doesn't necessarily make them true. As an example, the idea that for accuracy performance barrels will "prefer" a certain "lot speed" was often repeated over a decade ago. Currently few if any serious RFBR shooters believe it, shooting the best lots regardless of "lot speed".

The first view is that good rifles will shoot good, consistent ammo well. Put another way, if the ammo is good, a good rifle will shoot it well. It's important to remember that not all lots will shoot equally well because not all lots are equally consistent. In other words some ammo lots of the same variety (e.g. Tenex, Midas, or CX) are more consistent in quality than others, making them "better" lots.

Of course not all rifle barrels are equal and as a result not all barrels will shoot the same ammo equally well. This is why an inexpensive rifle will not shoot like an expensive one, even when using the best ammos.

The other view, often repeated on rimfire forums, is that each good barrel, shoots different lots differently. They will shoot some lots well and others not so well. In other words they will "like" or prefer some lots, producing better results with them on average.

According to this view, a lot that doesn't shoot well in one barrel may shoot well in another. That is to say, each barrel will shoot some lots better than others. Lots that don't shoot well in one barrel may shoot well in another. It's a matter of matching the lot to the barrel. It's not a question of ammo consistency and quality.

I'm going to ask you some questions that I feel I already know the answer to, in order to make an attempt to determine where we might share ideas and where our ideas might differ. You suppose that given good ammo, good rifles will shoot well with it. Suppose we have Good Rifle A and Good Rifle B that have competed against each other quite often, and which one wins the day seems to be up to a coin toss, such that we can likely consider them to be pretty much equals. That is to say, we wouldn't worry too much about selecting one or the other to shoot with if we knew we'd be competing against the one we didn't pick. That's how confident we are in the similarities between their historic performance.

Do you suppose Good Rifle A is likely to shoot as well as Good Rifle B given the same lot number of Good Consistent Ammo? Or are they likely to exhibit different performance with the same ammo? "Will shoot it well" isn't terribly specific.

If you did a bunch of lot testing with the same ammo in each rifle, do you suppose the results would be similar?

Perhaps they don't shoot equally well as each other, but do you suppose the relative performance differences from lot number to lot number would be about the same relative to each other? As in, with Good Rifle A, maybe lot 123 is best, and lot 456 is second best, lot 789 is worst, and when testing the same stuff in Good Rifle B it may or may not shoot equally as well as Good Rifle A did, but it would also show best results with lot 123, second best results with lot 456, and worst results with lot 789?

 

[Hitzy]

If you are not loading it yourself, as in center fire world, you are always at the mercy of the manufacturer, nothing can be done to make it better.
Throw in low velocity, garbage BC, it's just an exercise in frustration if you are after perfection and consistency.
Some people find this frustrating bull#### fun, and mess around every way possible to make it better. That's fine, I don't judge, it's a hobby to most, very few profit from rimfire shoots, and as already mentioned, roll a dice to see which top shooter on a given day falls in the 1-6 range.
If any you ####ers figure it out, let me know lol, I'm all ears.

 

[True Shadows]

We are blessed…or challenged with the fact that there are so many variables in the world of .22LR accuracy.

If memory serves me well I recall taking a math course in university titled ‘Permutations and Combinations’ dealing with the calculations of probabilities of outcomes. I barely passed the exam, I’m not a smart guy, but I realized I wasn’t gifted enough to beat the odds at the casinos so I never gambled.

What I’m bringing to the table is that there are literally thousands of variables which result in millions of combinations in the outcomes of the game of .22LR accuracy.
….And that is why we will always have a topic to discuss on CGN and other forums to the end of time, or 4.00am if you can’t sleep and are addicted to New Posts on CGN….

I’m too old to repeat all my shooting tests of the past and now when I stumble upon a rifle and ammo combo that really shines together I just accept it and don’t worry about the why anymore. Same as when a hot chick says she loves me I don’t question why, just say please and thank you….Love, weather and .22LR accuracy can change unexpectedly and so we can either fret about it or just move on. I leave the research and speculation to those younger and more gifted than me. lol
….I truly respect and appreciate those that are on the accuracy quest and often post to share their findings…..something to read at 4am for an old fart like me. Cheers!!

I think this is where this all ends eventually. The "swordfighting" is unnecessary.

There are far too many variables.

If you find the combination that works for you... run with it!

Don't overthink it.

 

[OkayShooter]

I think this is where this all ends eventually. The "swordfighting" is unnecessary.

There are far too many variables.

If you find the combination that works for you... run with it!

Don't overthink it.

Rimfire ammo is rolling dice. It is so massed produced. with soo many variables that effect accuracy, it ends up being luck.

Same MV doesn't mean same hole.

 

[Hissatsu]

No telling with ammo in my very limited experience. My anny 54(gun A) shoots sk match very good. Where as anny 54(gun B) shoots this lot with larger groups. A different ammo reverses the situation. Must try lot in each rifle.