questions about the Beretta PX4 Storm

[bsand]

I also have a friend in border services and he says the same - horrible and heavy trigger. He hates that it's his duty gun.

How well does your buddy shoot it? It seems that CBSA has almost no training at all when it comes to weapon handling.

My buddy shoots with one eye closed and does this weird grip where his weak thumb wraps around behind his strong thumb. He called it the c-grip...

 

[ozguy]

The safety on my PX4!is takes a little muscle. It's never been an easy flip. I rarely use it. It was my first do I have a soft spot for it. I don't shoot it much at the moment but I think it is a nice, soft shooting gun with that rotating barrel. I was told when I bought it that the trigger wouldn't wear out, it would wear in. Something to that I think.

 

[jacotsmith]

The DA trigger on mine is buttery smooth and while the take up lasts about a mile, the SA is light and crisp. The crappy finish doesn't bother me but the stiff safety when going back and forth between my 92fs leaves me a little wanting. But I m gonna find some new sights for it for sure.

 

[KotKotofeich]

Remember that CBSA have the DA only version of the trigger vs. the private px4 DA/SA. Comparing the two different models is pretty useless - the DAO trigger is sucky.

 

[mcwalther]

How well does your buddy shoot it? It seems that CBSA has almost no training at all when it comes to weapon handling.

My buddy shoots with one eye closed and does this weird grip where his weak thumb wraps around behind his strong thumb. He called it the c-grip...

Didn't say just that it's a son of a gun to shoot in that configuration. I tell him the bright side is that he can crush stone with his right index finger.

 

[BlackWatch]

How well does your buddy shoot it? It seems that CBSA has almost no training at all when it comes to weapon handling.

My buddy shoots with one eye closed and does this weird grip where his weak thumb wraps around behind his strong thumb. He called it the c-grip...

They are trained to the same standard as the rcmp. C clamp is one of the taught methods. Applying pressure between the thumb and index finger of your strong hand is a way to relax your strong hand so that you do not grip the pistol too tightly. Closing one eye at 15m and 25m taught as well for these aimed shots.

 

[BooSSted]

How well does your buddy shoot it? It seems that CBSA has almost no training at all when it comes to weapon handling.

My buddy shoots with one eye closed and does this weird grip where his weak thumb wraps around behind his strong thumb. He called it the c-grip...

The CBSA course of fire is the hardest one in the country now that the RCMP has modified theirs. The training has gotten pretty watered down now though. Massive budget cuts neutered the program.

The C-Clamp grip is a carry over from the RCMP revolver days. It should have never been introduced into the CBSA program, but it works for people who are unable to manage their grip pressure.

 

[Clobbersauras]

OP, the answers to a lot of your questions are in my thread here:

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-PX4-Long-Term-Review?highlight=Px4+long+term

Regarding your safety, I converted mine to a G, but it was fairly easy to operate as an F. You must have a strong ball detent spring or something. If you want a decocker only, the conversion is fairly simple. You can find more info about it in my thread as well.

 

[jacotsmith]

Thanks Clobbersaurus, great post. Maybe I just need to pull my safety apart to see how it ticks and hope I learned something from last time. I still am leaning towards picking up some of the 92-style levers when they're in stock again. I got an email from Beretta last time they were available but hummed and hawed and missed the boat. They seem to get unanimously good reviews. And yes I like the safety, if I wanted a straight decocker that's what a P226 is for (even though the positions of the decocker and slide release are reversed relative to every other pistol I've ever owned... just to keep training interesting...)

Anyone else have a source for sights or other parts?

 

[Rjl001]

How well does your buddy shoot it? It seems that CBSA has almost no training at all when it comes to weapon handling.

My buddy shoots with one eye closed and does this weird grip where his weak thumb wraps around behind his strong thumb. He called it the c-grip...

CBSA Officers shoot out to 25 meters with a DAO trigger, a 9.9 lbs Dao trigger. They do pretty well I think. It's also a short sight radius and an extremely long trigger pull. They may not be IPSC grand Master operators but there is a hell of a lot more to carrying a firearm in a law enforcement roll than punching holes in cardboard really quickly.

 

[bsand]

CBSA Officers shoot out to 25 meters with a DAO trigger, a 9.9 lbs Dao trigger. They do pretty well I think. It's also a short sight radius and an extremely long trigger pull. They may not be IPSC grand Master operators but there is a hell of a lot more to carrying a firearm in a law enforcement roll than punching holes in cardboard really quickly.

He was missing a 2/3 IPSC target at 10 yards and closing one eye while using a dated grip. I shot his pistol at same target rapid fire every round hit. Same exact gun and my first time shooting it. I just got back into pistols in October, so by no means am I a GM, just a middle C class in uspsa.

 

[Rjl001]

He was missing a 2/3 IPSC target at 10 yards and closing one eye while using a dated grip. I shot his pistol at same target rapid fire every round hit. Same exact gun and my first time shooting it. I just got back into pistols in October, so by no means am I a GM, just a middle C class in uspsa.

Fair enough, we do have some that struggle.... Every agency does. But as a generalization I would say it is a fairly misinformed statement to insinuate CBSA has poor weapons handling. I am a fairly competent shooter, don't struggle at all.... But for work my focus is not just marksmanship. Our handling and drills are meant for the masses, all skill levels, ages, experience and body types. So your friend may need some skills enhancement but making generalizations about a large armed enforcement agencies weapons handling based on your friend is misleading.

 

[bsand]

Fair enough, we do have some that struggle.... Every agency does. But as a generalization I would say it is a fairly misinformed statement to insinuate CBSA has poor weapons handling. I am a fairly competent shooter, don't struggle at all.... But for work my focus is not just marksmanship. Our handling and drills are meant for the masses, all skill levels, ages, experience and body types. So your friend may need some skills enhancement but making generalizations about a large armed enforcement agencies weapons handling based on your friend is misleading.

They are lacking on the handling he kept racking a round out when reloading just basic handling skills, yes he has to qualify early, but they do not get any range time provided by agency. Yes they do get practice ammo and are able to take the guns home (stored just like us peons) but not many take advantage of that.

Then the one time I was crossing the border and had to get verified the damn CBSA guy kept flagging me with my own guns.

Another time my American buddies were in Montana gopher hunting with suppressed ar's and carry guns and 30 round magazines. CBSA was clearing their guns and well proceeded to flag my buddies then drop the gun and Hand it back without even clearing the chamber.

 

[Rjl001]

They are lacking on the handling he kept racking a round out when reloading just basic handling skills, yes he has to qualify early, but they do not get any range time provided by agency. Yes they do get practice ammo and are able to take the guns home (stored just like us peons) but not many take advantage of that.

Rcmp get no range time either. Thank your politicians for that. My wife carries a pistol for work as well, she shoots fairly well, but she also has the proper mindset (equally if not more important), I'd take most of my colleagues to a car to disarm and arrest an identified gang member with warrants over a weekend sport shooter.

 

[Rjl001]

They are lacking on the handling he kept racking a round out when reloading just basic handling skills, yes he has to qualify early, but they do not get any range time provided by agency. Yes they do get practice ammo and are able to take the guns home (stored just like us peons) but not many take advantage of that.

Then the one time I was crossing the border and had to get verified the damn CBSA guy kept flagging me with my own guns.

Another time my American buddies were in Montana gopher hunting with suppressed ar's and carry guns and 30 round magazines. CBSA was clearing their guns and well proceeded to flag my buddies then drop the gun and Hand it back without even clearing the chamber.

I'm convinced then, CBSA has terrible weapon handling.
When I was at a sanctioned IDPA match I was flagged by a shooter...... Do I apply same logic to be fair?

 

[BlackWatch]

They are lacking on the handling he kept racking a round out when reloading just basic handling skills, yes he has to qualify early, but they do not get any range time provided by agency. Yes they do get practice ammo and are able to take the guns home (stored just like us peons) but not many take advantage of that.

Then the one time I was crossing the border and had to get verified the damn CBSA guy kept flagging me with my own guns.

Another time my American buddies were in Montana gopher hunting with suppressed ar's and carry guns and 30 round magazines. CBSA was clearing their guns and well proceeded to flag my buddies then drop the gun and Hand it back without even clearing the chamber.

Was he doing a tactical reload when he was racking rounds out or was he loading an empty pistol and racking the pistol twice?

What do you mean you kept getting flagged during one border crossing?

And your American buddies? They were in the states hunting and then decided to cross the border with ARs, 30 round mags, concealed pistols and suppressors?

 

[bsand]

Was he doing a tactical reload when he was racking rounds out or was he loading an empty pistol and racking the pistol twice?

What do you mean you kept getting flagged during one border crossing?

And your American buddies? They were in the states hunting and then decided to cross the border with ARs, 30 round mags, concealed pistols and suppressors?

1) when topping up his pistol with one in the pipe cause he only had 3 rounds left for a 6 round drill. He also stopped obeying proper weapon handling when he was 'unloaded' then kept saying it's unloaded as usual LEO when called out. I did set him straight with following the range rules (ie muzzle pointed down range regardless).

2) they kept pointing it at me when checking the serials

3) accidental crossing and not noticing they went north instead of South due to them talking. Declared everything they had in the truck and got turned around.

 

[BlackWatch]

1) when topping up his pistol with one in the pipe cause he only had 3 rounds left for a 6 round drill. He also stopped obeying proper weapon handling when he was 'unloaded' then kept saying it's unloaded as usual LEO when called out. I did set him straight with following the range rules (ie muzzle pointed down range regardless).

2) they kept pointing it at me when checking the serials

3) accidental crossing and not noticing they went north instead of South due to them talking. Declared everything they had in the truck and got turned around.

Ok
That makes more sense. I was wondering how they got all that stuff in. I don't know how your buddy passed his initial firearms course if he can't hit a target at 30 feet aiming. I've seen a few people sent home due to continuous safety violations and also not being able to shoot 200 or pass every stage. I've seen a few people who had never shot a gun before start shooting 250/250 out of the gate. One guy went from shooting 225 to 246-250 by getting new glasses.

 

[bsand]

Well after the first miss on steel I had him slow down and he started to get hits. I think he was trying to go as fast as me when I'm shooting a da/sa shadow that's 6.75/2.75 lb trigger.
He was getting hits on 25 M doing their qualifying drill. I just would have expected better from someone who carries one for work.

 

[BlackWatch]

Well after the first miss on steel I had him slow down and he started to get hits. I think he was trying to go as fast as me when I'm shooting a da/sa shadow that's 6.75/2.75 lb trigger.
He was getting hits on 25 M doing their qualifying drill. I just would have expected better from someone who carries one for work.

If he was hitting the 2/3 ipsc target at 25 m he was hitting the scoring zone on a regular cbsa target. I bought a model D px4 from Questar with a 106mm barrel. I believe it was firestorm who made it. It was a much better barrel than the original beretta barrel, had less tolerance. I would shoot 250 at least half the time on an outdoor range. When I started shooting the cbsa issue pistol I was struggling to shoot in the high 240s on a good day. There was always one or two flyers at 25m that brought the score down.

Imo it's just a poor set up on that pistol. The trigger is terrible on the DA model, mags are the cheapest I've ever seen and the overall quality is lacking. At the time the M&P was the favourite pistol until it failed the drop test. The way the specifications were written in 2006/07 they were just missing a few good pistols that came out a couple of years later. I would have chosen the HK P2000, same gun chosen by Correctional Services Canada and USCBP. Better quality and smaller.
As for the course of fire, the rcmp have moved to a shorter distance and a more common sense approach better simulating an actual gun fight. It will be interesting to see the outcome of the 4 charges the rcmp face in New Brunswick after the Moncton shooting. I'm betting the federal government will roll out the patrol carbine to cbsa, dfo, environment and parks Canada to cover their ass.