Questions about the M&P9

CV32 said:
Wow, are you ever in the minority.
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No, He pays import taxes (16% I believe) for a gun made outside of N.A. and thinks it adds value to his HK, a gun you seldom see in any of the major action shooting sports and even less in the hands of professionals. The latter likely because the gun costs twice as much as it's competitors due in part to taxes but even more so to foreign currency exchange rates and higher manufacturing costs (local labour and taxes). Having done so it is important for him to justify his purchase by slagging any other choices with straw man arguments. and opinion he claims are facts.

Take Care

Bob
 
KevinB said:
Poor Ave is in for an awful shock next year when a few die hard Hk users toss them for M&P's ;)

Is the Hk a great gun - yes, however I can buy 2 M&P's for the price of an Hk P30

The Pro series guns are available in two barrel lengths - the FS (4.5" barrel) and the Long (5" barrel).

I carry a Pro CORE as my EDC and Duty pistol -- no external safety.

I've had external safety M&P's and I decided it just was not a requirement for me.
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Kevin what barrel length did you settle on and what optic. I am exploring the idea of going with a PRO CORE in 9MM with an optic. Kind of a poor mans Open gun for IPSC .

Take Care

Bob
 
KevinB said:
Is the Hk a great gun - yes, however I can buy 2 M&P's for the price of an Hk P30
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The M&P stomps the P30 on this basis alone. Even if it was as hard to get S&W spares as for HK (which it isn't), you can buy a whole second gun for a similar cost. Logistics trumps incremental technical improvement in my books.

Subjective criteria like "fit and finish" are absurd when applied to polymer-framed service pistols. They are shooting appliances, not works of industrial art.

I concur that a large proportion of fanboys are attracted to HK precisely because they are more expensive. Unless conspicuous consumption is your objective, you don't always get what you pay for.
 
I dare you to shoot one and then you decide.

they both shoot.
The same way a Civic and a BMW Z3 takes you from point A to B.

I can't afford the Z3 otherwise I would have one.

I don't piss money or drink HK Kool-Aid. I like good quality ####, whether it comes in polymer or metal and to me all guns are utilitarian.
To me is a really simple. I see guys changing triggers, adding stippling, this and that. HK comes ready out the box. Does it cost me more, yes. It is my money and I spend it GLADLY on the HK, who cares!!!

I had the MP and I loved it for a while, that love didn't last long. I found all kinds of little things here and there, bore was flat on one side, machining marks inside the slide, and very ####ty trigger and sights (and I won't shoot it 1000 times to make it better ok, no time for that BS). the MP works, It works, and It is very ok gun for the money. Then, I took my chanced and found a NIB 2nd hand HK and noticed how different it was from start. Machining is PERFECT all around the pistol, grip is customizable so you can mix and match side panels to fit your hand. I think that is amazing, mine has large on right, medium on left, medium back strap, and it pretty cool how it fits me.
For some the extra $$$ is not justifiable. The MP is good gun, perhaps I went overboard calling it garbage. I still think SW quality is hit and miss.
Looking back, I don't miss the MP one bit. I would buy a Walther ppq or a Glock any day. So at the end of the day you choose whatever you like best.
I like HK, because of the perfection put through the production line, the final product is flawless, and I mean FLAWLESS, all around. I dare you find a glitch or a not fitting piece in a HK.

So there is that, do whatever you want. Not everybody has to like the HK and not everybody has to like the MP and this can keep going until the end of times. It's going to be ANOTHER ridiculous internet conversation with no ending. So I am out.

Keep bashing names all you want, this is ridiculous!

Cheers!


tjhaile said:
The M&P stomps the P30 on this basis alone. Even if it was as hard to get S&W spares as for HK (which it isn't), you can buy a whole second gun for a similar cost. Logistics trumps incremental technical improvement in my books.

Subjective criteria like "fit and finish" are absurd when applied to polymer-framed service pistols. They are shooting appliances, not works of industrial art.

I concur that a large proportion of fanboys are attracted to HK precisely because they are more expensive. Unless conspicuous consumption is your objective, you don't always get what you pay for.
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Canuck44 said:
Kevin what barrel length did you settle on and what optic. I am exploring the idea of going with a PRO CORE in 9MM with an optic. Kind of a poor mans Open gun for IPSC .

Take Care

Bob
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if i can help i picked up the 5" and put a Leupold Deltapoint (7moa) and i love the set up!

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Canuck44 said:
No, He pays import taxes (16% I believe) for a gun made outside of N.A. and thinks it adds value to his HK,dom see in a a gun you selny of the major action shooting sports and even less in the hands of professionals. The latter likely because the gun costs twice as much as it's competitors due in part to taxes but even more so to foreign currency exchange rates and higher manufacturing costs (local labour and taxes). Having done so it is important for him to justify his purchase by slagging any other choices with straw man arguments. and opinion he claims are facts.

Take Care

Bob
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Wanna validate that statement with some numbers? Who runs the m&p vs hk pistols for those who kill for a living? And another eurotrash pistol the glock is the most popular le choice iirc.
 
XRCD011 said:
Guys, thanks very very much for the imput on the pros and cons of Chinese-American or European handguns. All good stuff but to lighten things up abit I proudly present this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGG7DfZ5DU
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Those downfall videos are almost always funny, this was no exception haha. But mein fuhrer what about the 1911 LOL. I am still trying to force air back into my lungs.

flyrrad said:
Laugh2 Laugh2 Laugh2 Laugh2 Laugh2 I just shot coffee out my nose and eyeball sockets!!!!
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Glad I could entertain. nose and eyball sockets, that's a new record for me. :)


Speaking of records, i would like to clarify once and for all that I don't think the m&p sucks. It definitely is one of the best values out there. If not the best value for handguns at the moment.
 
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Don't listen to the obvious haters in this thread. I have 4 M&P's and have never had an issue with any of them. The current version is worth the few extra $ you will spend. S&W have reengineered a few components on the newer models including the sear cam. An older gun can be "adjusted" in about 15 minutes with no need for parts and give you a crisp 4-4.5 lbs trigger. I own over 30 euro pistols, and IMHO, the M&P range kist is the best deal of all of them. BTW, All of my M&P's shoot better than I do.
 
bacon1337 said:
Wanna validate that statement with some numbers? Who runs the m&p vs hk pistols for those who kill for a living? And another eurotrash pistol the glock is the most popular le choice iirc.
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Name me two N.A. LEO agencies that authorize the HK as their only duty pistol. The M&P in the US runs a close 2nd to Glock as an in use pistol. The HK isn`t close. Why, because it costs to much. Both are excellent guns but one is an over priced German product, due to taxes and currency exchange rates neither of which have much to do with the quality of the gun. Sorry I don`t know anyone or any organization that kills for a living and neither do you. Well maybe the couch commandos on gunnutz but they just do it at night just before they fall asleep.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Name me two N.A. LEO agencies that authorize the HK as their only duty pistol. The M&P in the US runs a close 2nd to Glock as an in use pistol. The HK isn`t close. Why, because it costs to much. Both are excellent guns but one is an over priced German product, due to taxes and currency exchange rates neither of which have much to do with the quality of the gun. Sorry I don`t know anyone or any organization that kills for a living and neither do you. Well maybe the couch commandos on gunnutz but they just do it at night just before they fall asleep.

Take Care

Bob
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Us custom, and our own correctional services, and apparently our parks warden run p2000, a couple nobody police departments run usp.

Oh and a little wake up call sunshine, you can get off your high horse, because 'murica is not the only country in the world. What about mil? Which sf has enlisted a m&p?

As for the knowing, I wouldn't make assumptions if I were you.
 
bacon1337 said:
Which sf has enlisted a m&p?
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Wait for it.......... its worth waiting for, really.

US Customs (all of DHS) still largely use the P229 in 40 because even though they want to change, they can't afford it due to spending restraint.

Our Corrections use the HK largely because of the efforts of a member here, I'd imagine Parks piggy backed off that contract, neither agency is staffed by what you could even optimistically describe as 'shooters', with some exceptions, of course.

If we're going to include Customs Services in the catch all 'shooters' class, what does that say about the Beretta PX4?
 
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I don't see anywhere in his post hinting America is the only country in the world. He stated that both guns are excellent but the German products are over priced due to taxes and exchange rate are his words exactly.

Perhaps he was too hasty in assuming but if you don't take his words literally I believe he was trying to say the HK guns are hard to be seen used in service which is true.

bacon1337 said:
Us custom, and our own correctional services, and apparently our parks warden run p2000, a couple nobody police departments run usp.

Oh and a little wake up call sunshine, you can get off your high horse, because 'murica is not the only country in the world. What about mil? Which sf has enlisted a m&p?

As for the knowing, I wouldn't make assumptions if I were you.
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I don't know what you guys are smoking but any hk costs only $200-300 more than a Glock, only, here in Canada. IF you are paying more than that your are buying at the wrong place. $300 more (to me) is not a lot a of money when I compare what I got for my money. Choose your poison.

After taxes MP cost 750, Glock, costs 850, any walther around 900, and HK between 1000 to 1200 depending model.
How do I know the math, because I bought all the above mentioned guns, new.

Anyway, in the line of thought of 'I am not buying this for taxes or labour or exchange rate', BULL####!!!, your would not consume anything made outside North America, then! What about the car you drive? I hope it is a Chevrolet, otherwise you are ####ting us.

A lot of things come into play, specially offer and demand. Simple.


mudgolem said:
I don't see anywhere in his post hinting America is the only country in the world. He stated that both guns are excellent but the German products are over priced due to taxes and exchange rate are his words exactly.

Perhaps he was too hasty in assuming but if you don't take his words literally I believe he was trying to say the HK guns are hard to be seen used in service which is true.
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Avenida Your




Your HK gets tagged with 16% duty before it gets near the distributor as it is made outside of N.A. To Germany has one of the highest tax and wage rates n Europe and you get to pay for it. The HK is a well designed firearm but is overpriced compared to the firearms it competes with. You can use words like garbage and bull#### all you want in the absence of anything intelligent to use to rebuff the financial facts in front of you. Glock built an assembly plant in US , in part as a way to get their costs down to fill the American LEO market. That and a rumoured threat, at one point, the US was going to ban or severely tax guns imported into the US. The gun is not going to populate police agencies armories any time soon due for the most part on price alone. The latter is the principle deciding factor on virtually all public service purchases, that and politics.

You may think a $300 increase in price over competitors is a minor issue and well worth it to buy a superior, in your mind, firearm. HK`s problem is there isn`t enough of your types around. If you are an agency buying 1500 pistols that minor amount to you is a $450,000 headache for someones budget. It is in agency sales where companies like HK can make their money. I wouldn`t be surprised if there haven`t been 1500 civilian sales of HK pistols in all of Canada.

Take Care

Bob
 
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