I've been doing a little reading on the interweb on the 6 and 6.5 lapuas. I've found that these cartridges use small rifle primers and this seen as a benefit. Using my limited knowledge about firearm physics, wouldn't large primers be better? Wouldn't a large rifle primer give a more complete ignition of the powder? Also wondering if these cartridges would fit in a "mini mauser" like the CZ or Anchutz? How does the 6.5 creedmore compare with these guys?
Questions on 6.5X47 lapua?
- Thread starter kimberman
- Start date
It is my understanding that there is less "upset" in the powder column with the small primer...and since the column of powder is relatively short, a large primer is not required for optimum ignition. (Soon, small primer brass will also be avail for 308 Win--by Lapua)
I think the downrange ballistics are pretty close with the Creedmore with similar weight bullets.
I think the downrange ballistics are pretty close with the Creedmore with similar weight bullets.
When this carrtidge went through its "beta testing", it had a large rifle primer. The serious ISSF shooters that experimented with this wanted a small rifle primer and that is what went to production. It has benefits including a better tolerance for pressure.
I had difficulty making a 6mmX47 Lapua work consistently, and I had suspected there might be some validity to to the primer argument, and so I took some Norma 6XC brass and made some cases (it took more work than I reckoned) and in the end, there was not one iota difference in accuracy or average velocity, in fact with BR2's the ES were notably worse.
I use CCI 450 magnum primers in '47 brass and they worked just fine, although in general, I found the 6mmX47 to be a difficult cartirdge to make work consistntly very well.
To show you that the small primer stigma is largely without merrit, Lapua is now producing 308 brass with an optional small primer: 308 Palma Brass.
My thing is long distance shooting and for that, i want bullets with the highest possible BC. To my way of thinking, the 6.5X47 and the Creedmore are better suited for medium weight bullets in the 120-130 range, and for those they work very well, but you are handicapped by heavy bullet performance. In a short action, the 260 or 260AI is better for heavy bullets, and the 6.5-284 is the king of 6.5's. If building a medium 6.5, the Lapua hands down. Creedmore brass is scarce and comes nowhere near the Lapua for quality.
If Lapua doesn't build brass for it, basically I don't use it.
I had difficulty making a 6mmX47 Lapua work consistently, and I had suspected there might be some validity to to the primer argument, and so I took some Norma 6XC brass and made some cases (it took more work than I reckoned) and in the end, there was not one iota difference in accuracy or average velocity, in fact with BR2's the ES were notably worse.
I use CCI 450 magnum primers in '47 brass and they worked just fine, although in general, I found the 6mmX47 to be a difficult cartirdge to make work consistntly very well.
To show you that the small primer stigma is largely without merrit, Lapua is now producing 308 brass with an optional small primer: 308 Palma Brass.
My thing is long distance shooting and for that, i want bullets with the highest possible BC. To my way of thinking, the 6.5X47 and the Creedmore are better suited for medium weight bullets in the 120-130 range, and for those they work very well, but you are handicapped by heavy bullet performance. In a short action, the 260 or 260AI is better for heavy bullets, and the 6.5-284 is the king of 6.5's. If building a medium 6.5, the Lapua hands down. Creedmore brass is scarce and comes nowhere near the Lapua for quality.
If Lapua doesn't build brass for it, basically I don't use it.
The smaller primer allows for a stronger base, I think, and higher case pressure.
This guy goes over it:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5x47-lapua-tactical-rifle
And:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/
Take it how you will...
This guy goes over it:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5x47-lapua-tactical-rifle
And:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/
Take it how you will...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
All the present 6.5's from the Grendel to the 6.5-284 shoot well. It is just a function of how fast you want to move a particular bullet weight vs the barrel length vs recoil vs barrel wear.
Small primer vs large primer has alot to do with the type of powder you use, the amount of that powder, and the ambient temp.
I have tested primers/powders in 6BR and 223's and found combo's where the ignition was poor. Was even able to get near flintlock type delays. An immediate switch to the 450's caused the problems to cease.
That is with quite a bit less powder then the Lapua. Can you make it work....absolutely. Lots of small case small primers cartridges being shot with superb results. But then there are way more based on the LR primer doing the same thing.
Does it offer any sig benefit over a similar case volume using a LR primer? I have not seen any benefits except that the smaller primer will mask elevated pressures better. Now we are talking pressures above SAAMI magnum levels so not sure if I would bother playing at that end of the pool.
As for the Lapua small primer 308, definitely old news. Rem made some years back for wildcatters and accuracy minded shooters. I believe it was called the 308BR.
With the powders of the day, it was a complete flop and died quickly. Now with the extruded powders we have, maybe but I have seen zero issues with the LR primer so personally will not bother switching.
I set my loads within magnum pressures and enjoy the stability and consistency this gives me. Also, I have a bit of wiggle room if conditions push my pressures up unexpectantly.
I can't see a SR primer helping this out any further.
As to Lapua vs Creedmore, there is no replacement for displacement. What the Lapua will do at elevated pressures, the next case family will do at standard pressures. Raise the larger case to the same pressure level, and it will move the same bullet faster.
Start with the application/bullet then work back to the case you need to make it all happen for you. They ALL shoot well.
Jerry
Small primer vs large primer has alot to do with the type of powder you use, the amount of that powder, and the ambient temp.
I have tested primers/powders in 6BR and 223's and found combo's where the ignition was poor. Was even able to get near flintlock type delays. An immediate switch to the 450's caused the problems to cease.
That is with quite a bit less powder then the Lapua. Can you make it work....absolutely. Lots of small case small primers cartridges being shot with superb results. But then there are way more based on the LR primer doing the same thing.
Does it offer any sig benefit over a similar case volume using a LR primer? I have not seen any benefits except that the smaller primer will mask elevated pressures better. Now we are talking pressures above SAAMI magnum levels so not sure if I would bother playing at that end of the pool.
As for the Lapua small primer 308, definitely old news. Rem made some years back for wildcatters and accuracy minded shooters. I believe it was called the 308BR.
With the powders of the day, it was a complete flop and died quickly. Now with the extruded powders we have, maybe but I have seen zero issues with the LR primer so personally will not bother switching.
I set my loads within magnum pressures and enjoy the stability and consistency this gives me. Also, I have a bit of wiggle room if conditions push my pressures up unexpectantly.
I can't see a SR primer helping this out any further.
As to Lapua vs Creedmore, there is no replacement for displacement. What the Lapua will do at elevated pressures, the next case family will do at standard pressures. Raise the larger case to the same pressure level, and it will move the same bullet faster.
Start with the application/bullet then work back to the case you need to make it all happen for you. They ALL shoot well.
Jerry
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
I cannot imagine the .308 Palma SR primer cases being loaded to above pressures working out if that is a reason for having that primer. In the benchrest game they load ammo usually for each relay to match the weather.
Then I suppose you need to load Palma ammo according to weather also or sort into batches for different temperatures. Is this really a practical idea for Palma? Maybe they know something I don't with hundreds of round per day?
Then I suppose you need to load Palma ammo according to weather also or sort into batches for different temperatures. Is this really a practical idea for Palma? Maybe they know something I don't with hundreds of round per day?
Thanks guys for the good replies, those were interesting articles RayMan. After all that now I'm wondering..... whats wrong with the good old sweed? It seems they were all matching 6.5x55 performance but with the low pressure of the sweed it seems to me that you would have less heat, less recoil, and longer barrel life. I suppose the action length is the big thing there but in a long action you would have lots of room to seat bullets. The low powder charge of the 6.5x47 looks attractive, but the high pressures would almost persuade me to choose somehing else.
If Lapua puts their name on it, it is good, it will fit in a short action, compared to a Swede long action, if you go over the different cartridges like I did (do) it will drive you nutz,,, time better spent shooting.....if one doesn't work, rechamber and go at her again.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
6.5x55 Swede is still the benchmark and still my favourite. 
With the .260 Rem, and 6.5x47mm Lapua, (edit: and the 6.5mm Creedmoor, too) you can use them in rifles with .308 Win bolt faces with a change of the barrel, so that's another thing to look at. Attractive if you want to get into 6.5mm but don't want to buy a new rifle for whatever reason.
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I love the 6.5 bullet, did build 2 rem700 260rem using 243win Winchester brass neck up to 260rem, on my 3 build of 260rem in 20" with an older rem700 Pre 64 action, I also build 700LA 6.5X55 heavy varmint contour in 25" but some how I still love the 260rem, easy to shoot, very flat and accurate. Looking for another decent stock for the older rem700action...
The Swede is an exceptional cartridge! it really needs a long action however, and in some rifles, its larger case base may be a problem.
As to the "No replacement for displacement" dictum, I'll be sure to pass that on to every 6BR and 6PPC shooter out there... The reality is that these high-pressure cartridges (in particular) to it better than anything else - period. They do it at the cost of being particular about their choices of powders though... I don't know about floating bolt heads and $300 actions, but responsible load development gives plenty of warning signs that you have reached the yellow or red line when working up. I do not consider these higher pressure cartridges to be a problem in modern firearms. You can blow yourself to bits with a 30-06 or a swede if you use the wrong powder in them too.
On of the economic realities out there is that low pressure cartridges do it, but with significantly more powder.
As to the "No replacement for displacement" dictum, I'll be sure to pass that on to every 6BR and 6PPC shooter out there...
The reality is that these high-pressure cartridges (in particular) to it better than anything else - period. They do it at the cost of being particular about their choices of powders though... I don't know about floating bolt heads and $300 actions, but responsible load development gives plenty of warning signs that you have reached the yellow or red line when working up. I do not consider these higher pressure cartridges to be a problem in modern firearms. You can blow yourself to bits with a 30-06 or a swede if you use the wrong powder in them too.On of the economic realities out there is that low pressure cartridges do it, but with significantly more powder.
ohhhh, cheap shot
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
As to the "No replacement for displacement" dictum, I'll be sure to pass that on to every 6BR and 6PPC shooter out there...
Yep, they invented the 6BRX, Dasher and a few others based on the 6BR case. There is no one using the 6PPC in F class that I am aware of and limited testing by others show exactly what we already know, case too small for the heavies.
The increased in case capacity has lead to the 6XC, 6-6.5X47L and from decades past, the 6 INT, 6 IHMSA, etc, etc, etc.
I think you keep missing the point about displacement - small case run really hard, equals bigger case run moderately.
Take this larger case and run it just as hard (yes, every single one will) and you get way more performance.
They will all shoot accurately enough for the F class game.
6.5 Grendel or 6.5-284. Which would you prefer to run at 1000yds in a gale?
As for the costs of running a Savage, you are dead right - floating bolt head and $300 cost (actually LESS) equals solid bolt head/body, truing and blue printing, bolt body bushing or new parts, and whatever else is needed to get it set up (cost? well, you know)
Only thing I would add to the cost of the SAVAGE is bolt timing $65. The factory function is less then ideal and a bit of money spent here yields a great handling action.
I have never met a Savage action that wouldn't function just fine after the primers have been blown out of the case (NOT SOMETHING TO TRY AT HOME). How are the Rem's doing?
So for handling pressures, I have seen no benefit at least up to 80,000psi. Levels NO ONE should be playing on a regular basis cause we are just getting dangerous.
Besides, running ANY case with present powders at pressures much above 65.000psi, makes for a very temporamental Witch.
And yes, you can ask the PPC guys about that too....
Jerry
PS, the Swede will live very happily in a Short Action Savage or TIKKA. Actions without stunted mags.
O.k., since we're talking about smaller cases with high pressures and larger cases with small pressures..... is it advantagous to have your case nearly full of powder (eg .260 rem with H4831sc at 97% capacity) or less full of powder (eg. 6.5-284 with w760 @ 76% capacity). Should you search for a load-cartridge combo that uses 90-100% of the case? Or does the % capacity make much of a difference. In my hunting rifles I try to load them in the 90's but I'm not always shooting .5moa either.
Interesting to note that the swede will function in a s.a. savage. (even if its a $300 action). On that note..... if the barrel and installation is the most important part of the rifle, how important is the action? Realisticly would identical 28" krieger's shoot much different on a savage compared to a surgeon? (that may be a stupid question but I'm curious to hear the response
Interesting to note that the swede will function in a s.a. savage. (even if its a $300 action). On that note..... if the barrel and installation is the most important part of the rifle, how important is the action? Realisticly would identical 28" krieger's shoot much different on a savage compared to a surgeon? (that may be a stupid question but I'm curious to hear the response
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
I have two Savage 6BR 12F (one for my wife with consecutive serial number), a custom 6.5x47 L on an RPA action, Trueflite barrel, and a second custom built on a Nesika action. Both customs were constructed by well respected site sponsors. The customs are much nicer looking without question.
I run Victory Diavari glass on the Savages and S&B PMII on the Customs. I took one of the Savages out yesterday for the afternoon. I can say that based on my experience, a large part of the accuracy potential difference between the Savage and a custom is based very heavily on the person pulling the trigger. The Savage 12F can be a very accurate rifle.
I went to a custom 6.5x47L based on the very challenging wind conditions at our local range located in a river valley.
Dismissing a Savage 12F based solely on price is a shame. This rifle can shoot toe-to-toe with a custom. It has more to do with who is squeezing the trigger.
I run Victory Diavari glass on the Savages and S&B PMII on the Customs. I took one of the Savages out yesterday for the afternoon. I can say that based on my experience, a large part of the accuracy potential difference between the Savage and a custom is based very heavily on the person pulling the trigger. The Savage 12F can be a very accurate rifle.
I went to a custom 6.5x47L based on the very challenging wind conditions at our local range located in a river valley.
Dismissing a Savage 12F based solely on price is a shame. This rifle can shoot toe-to-toe with a custom. It has more to do with who is squeezing the trigger.
Surgeon 591 Repeater, Krieger 1-8 twist Rem Heavy contour 27" finished, Mcmillan A-5 black & white mcswirly non adjustable, Jewel trigger, TPS rings, and a Nightforce 5.5-22x56 NP-R2 reticle.
I also will be a doing up a 20 Extreme on a Stiller Predator in a 223 boltface, with an AICS stock, with all the same manufacturers.
Aswell as a BAT HRRPTRPIC in a 7mm magnum no belt variant, stock has not been decided yet, but will be all the same manufacturers aswell.
I also will be a doing up a 20 Extreme on a Stiller Predator in a 223 boltface, with an AICS stock, with all the same manufacturers.
Aswell as a BAT HRRPTRPIC in a 7mm magnum no belt variant, stock has not been decided yet, but will be all the same manufacturers aswell.
