R.C.M.P Pistols

[koldt]

A lot of law enforcement agencies in Canada issue the Glock pistol. It is not a double action only. So much for that theory then, eh?

Well no. Glock refers to it's action as Double Action.

And in reality the firing pin does in fact move to the rear before firing in what is similar to a striker fire type system.

Seeing as the action is consistantly the same with Glock, they can then make the claim of double action only.

 

[NAA]

Well no. Glock refers to it's action as Double Action.

And in reality the firing pin does in fact move to the rear before firing in what is similar to a striker fire type system.

Seeing as the action is consistantly the same with Glock, they can then make the claim of double action only.

Actually, they refer to it as a "safe action"....

The "Safe Action" system provides a constant trigger pull weight and a constant trigger travel from the first shot up to the last shot. GLOCK pistols are safe when dropped, when they receive any other abnormal shocks and are fully functional at temperatures from -40° to +70° Celsius.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The GLOCK "Safe Action" system has revolutionized the handgun industry and has been widely adopted by law enforcement and other official users as well as commercial and competition/combat shooting areas due to its simple, fast, safe and reliable application.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The main advantage of the GLOCK "Safe Action" system is that is has no external safeties. Because of this, the user can fully concentrate on the tactical tasks required whilst being in a stress situation and does not need to think about any safeties to be deactivated. [/SIZE][/FONT]

Having been a Glock transition instructor, Glock armourer and shot many thousands of rounds thru the Glock, I do not believe the Glock action is 'doube action only' in the traditional sense of a double action/single action pistol or any of the DAO pistols offered by other makers, including S&W.

 

[safeguardguy]

True, It is its own unique deal. Safe Action and smooth light trigger. Shape and hand fit boths some though.

 

[kirill]

A lot of law enforcement agencies in Canada issue the Glock pistol. It is not a double action only. So much for that theory then, eh?

The ATF classifies Glocks as DAO, which is why it is popular with law enforcement in the 'states. There is no exposed hammer on the Glock that you can #### and fire in single-action mode. The trigger pull is consistent between the first and the subsequent shots. (Unless I'm totally wrong, because I never fired a Glock).

Glocks are definitely not DA/SA handguns, which is why they are chosen.
It is the possibility of a light single-action trigger pull that makes the liability lawsuit viable.

 

[safeguardguy]

6 shots only in a revolver. MAJOR issue for LEO.

Wait a minute. One or two well placed shots with a revolver will beat ten panicked misses with a semi-auto any day. From an old wheeler.

"Make haste slowly. You can't miss fast enough to catch up." - Wyatt Earp

 

[safeguardguy]

.... Based on personal use of,specifically, the S&W Model 10 and the D/A only , 5946, the trigger pull weights are comparable. The difference comes when deliberate fire is called for, then the revolver has a SLIGHT edge. Certainly when it comes to rate of fire, for the first 6 anyway, I'd put the revolver ahead, by a SLIGHT margin. If one looks the real revolver experts, like the late Bill Jordan, then one could give the edge to the revolver. However, when you go beyond 6 rounds, then clearly the pistol has a MAJOR advantage over a revolver that has to be reloaded. As in most cases, there are trade-offs and compromises. The current trend of "spray and pray" has the potential to create huge civil liability issues,and has the potential to cause, or contribute to, Innocent lives being lost. Obviously, the answer is to increase and improve training, and more actual live fire range time ! .. David K.

Well said David K. Some pistol shooters have developed an attitude of "shoot lots of rounds because you have lots". Where one of two deliberate rounds would do the job, they cap off five. As far a winning in a gun fight you won't win as you spend the rest of your life an alcoholic because one of your "spray and pray" rounds hit and killed an innocent child.

The only person who truly wins a gunfight is someone who avoids it all together.

 

[TW25B]

Well said David K. Some pistol shooters have developed an attitude of "shoot lots of rounds because you have lots". Where one of two deliberate rounds would do the job, they cap off five. As far a winning in a gun fight you won't win as you spend the rest of your life an alcoholic because one of your "spray and pray" rounds hit and killed an innocent child.

The only person who truly wins a gunfight is someone who avoids it all together.

I would say that "spray and pray" would be the hallmark of inexperience and lack of training. Police and other proffesionals SHOULD be better trained and have lots of range time. An untrained person will blast off all 6 rounds out of their wheel gun too.

I have qualified with the Smith& Wesson model 10 as I was a armored car driver and I have been shooting autos for years so I feel that I can comment.

Wheel gun for police = #### and dead cops. It would be like going back to bolt action rifles for the military instead of the C7.

Shot placement IS ALWAYS vital but when my Glock 17 with a REAL mag has 17 rounds and one in the pipe and your S&W has 6 in the gun and 2/3 speed loaders you are under gunned and WILL get ruined by a competent auto user. Or users as alot or most bad guys who are willing to to shoot people will probably bring friends.

I agree that the best gun fight is the one avoided but when that is impossible give LE the best tools out there.

 

[koldt]

Actually, they refer to it as a "safe action"....



Having been a Glock transition instructor, Glock armourer and shot many thousands of rounds thru the Glock, I do not believe the Glock action is 'doube action only' in the traditional sense of a double action/single action pistol or any of the DAO pistols offered by other makers, including S&W.

Sorry, you are right. On the newer courses Glock started to change it's nomenclature to "safe action" from double action. Guess I'm still an old timer with Glock compared to you more recent guys. I'm in the City that set the trend for the rest of Canada with Glock. It took some other cities awhile, but they caught on eventually .

Double/single action still refers to the movement of the firing pin/hammer in relation to the trigger pull. May not fit the "traditional" definition, but one has to "think outside the box" .

 

[cannonfodder]

I would say that "spray and pray" would be the hallmark of inexperience and lack of training. Police and other proffesionals SHOULD be better trained and have lots of range time. An untrained person will blast off all 6 rounds out of their wheel gun too.

I have qualified with the Smith& Wesson model 10 as I was a armored car driver and I have been shooting autos for years so I feel that I can comment.

Wheel gun for police = s**t and dead cops. It would be like going back to bolt action rifles for the military instead of the C7.

Shot placement IS ALWAYS vital but when my Glock 17 with a REAL mag has 17 rounds and one in the pipe and your S&W has 6 in the gun and 2/3 speed loaders you are under gunned and WILL get ruined by a competent auto user. Or users as alot or most bad guys who are willing to to shoot people will probably bring friends.

I agree that the best gun fight is the one avoided but when that is impossible give LE the best tools out there.

+1

There seems to be this notion that simply because someone prefers autos they must subscribe to the "spray and Pray" method of engagement. Obviously this is not the case. One of the great advantages an auto has over a revolver is in the multiple target scenario. I believe(I'm sure some LEO types will chime in) that the term often used and the method practiced goes like this: Fire till the foe falls. In other words keep shooting until the threat has ceased. perhaps 2 well placed rounds from your wheel gun will do that, fair enough. That is if both rounds hit the target and produce substantial damage to neutralize the threat. So now we have 2 individuals who decide to play on the two way range. With all the cards in your hand you score 4 hits, two on each guy and they both go down. Sounds good, but what happens when one decides he hasn't had enough? Suppose a third party gets involved? More likely than not you miss atleast one of those rounds. In a best case scenario you are left with 2 rounds to engage any and all other threats before reloading. You start the fight with the third guy with only 30% of your potential ability available to you. With the current issue Glock 22 you would be left with 11 or 12 rounds(depending on whether or not the Dept. allows officers to top up). 12 rounds is all your remaining reloads as a traditional revolver shooter. The guy with the Glock has spent around 25% of his first mag. By comparison that is only 9% of his total loadout. The revolver shooter has spent 22% of his total loadout. That's a 240% increase in used ammo by comparison between the 2. As TW25B pointed out, why not issue officers with the best equipment and the greatest advantage we can. Not because we expect them to use it, but because we expect them to have it.

Here's a short list of strictly revolver problems.

Timing
Gas cuts
swollen casings getting stuck in cylinder preventing the use of speed loaders
blown primers preventing operation
worn main spring
worn hamer spur
muzzle flash(sually greater than autos)
muzzle blast(usually greater than autos)
generally heavier than autos
generally larger than autos
inability to top up(limited capacity)
long trigger pull
two hands required to reload
inability to do partial loads(less than full cylinders)
Ejector rod backing out, preventing the opening of your cylinder
usually lack the ability to use night sights
greater felt recoil
slower follow up shots
slower reloads(unless you're Jerry Miculek)
loss of velocity
increased muzzle flip due to higher bore axis


CF

 

[NAA]

Wait a minute. One or two well placed shots with a revolver will beat ten panicked misses with a semi-auto any day. From an old wheeler.

"Make haste slowly. You can't miss fast enough to catch up." - Wyatt Earp

True words still valid today...

 

[wicked_police]

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[piperdown]

Glocks

Well, just to stir things, I did a re cert Glock Armourer last week, and the instructor said DAO or Safe Action was OK on the test. But I know what your Sayng NAA.

Actually, they refer to it as a "safe action"....



Having been a Glock transition instructor, Glock armourer and shot many thousands of rounds thru the Glock, I do not believe the Glock action is 'doube action only' in the traditional sense of a double action/single action pistol or any of the DAO pistols offered by other makers, including S&W.

 

[NAA]

Well, just to stir things, I did a re cert Glock Armourer last week, and the instructor said DAO or Safe Action was OK on the test.

Well, the 'instructor' was just wrong.

 

[koldt]

I thought I was wrong once

 

[wicked_police]

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