Range Report: Original Trapdoor, photos

Win 38-55

Win 38-55

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
42   0   0
Well men, last week I received my original Springfield Trapdoor Model 1884 45-70 rifle (with retractable round bayonet) that I won in the Kull & Supica auction. The cartouche on the stock says 1891. The bore is shiny, with sharp rifling and no pitting. I have a real weakness for bores like that. This is going to be my black powder rifle, but I was very curious to see what it would do with smokeless. Here's a couple pics of the rifle, with its 32 & 5/8" barrel ...
Trap-full-length.jpg

Trap-Action.jpg


I loaded up 19 rounds using 24 grains of 5744 and a single sheet of 1-ply toilet paper under a 405 grain plain base cast bullet, sized to .458. I wasn't too optimistic about the accuracy since reading Mike Venturino's Shooting Buffalo Guns of the Old West. He said that it is common for the trapdoors to have oversize bores. I haven't slugged this one yet. He also mentioned that the 405 grain cast bullets were not all that great for accuracy in his gun, but the 520 grain bullets shot great. I'm ordering a 520 grain mould for this rifle.

Well it was off to the range. I set a target up at 50 yards to adjust the sights. Talk about shooting high! I stuck a second, smaller target on the bottom of the paper and adjusted the windage. Now I was ready for 100 yards. I shot the first 5 rounds .... high and a little to the left. I adjusted the windage and aimed lower for the next 5-shot group. The dadgummed rifle shoots 14" high at 100 yards, and I have the rear sights down as low as she'll go! Looks like I'm going to have to install a higher front sight. I don't know what the 1800's US army was thinking when it came to close-combat (i.e., closer than 150 yards). Maybe you aimed for the fellow's crotch. Anyway, here's the more on-center, second 5-shot group ....
Trap-100-First.jpg


The five-shot group was 4 & 5/16" at 100 yards. The bore had no leading, so far as lead deposites go, but there was a thin, grey lead wash on the walls of the bore. This tells me my .458 bullets are probably a bit undersize for the groove diameter.

Chrono results for 24 grains 5744, 1 sheet 1-ply TP & 405 FP, PB bullet: 1,278 fps, E.S. = 53 fps, S.D. = 16 fps.

I figure that black powder will bump up this soft cast, plain base bullet a bit better, so that's my next project. The 500 grain bullet mould could take a month or so.

For my final 5 rounds, I figured I'd try some offhand shooting. I have to say that the boys back in the 1800's must have had one strong trigger finger. I practically had to throw a rope around the trigger and hitch the other end to the pick-up truck just to pull the trigger. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but that durn-tootin' trigger and that massive hammer time makes for some interesting offhand shooting. I decided I will not post a photo of the results. There is a limit to how much a fellow should humiliate himself on the web, and that target was past the limit. All I'll say is that at least all five shots were on the paper, and that was about it. Obviously, I'm going to need a bit more offhand practice with this old girl.
 
Viv, I haven't, but I can see that a hollow based might bump up a bit better to fill the bore. I think I'll try a 500 grain bullet, but I will size it larger, to .459 or .460.
 
Shoots high eh??? All of this era military rifle also shoot high. I was advised that the shooting started at 200 yards where the bullet would be somewhat dead on. Aiming point was the center of mass so at 50 yards, while fixing your bayonet and peeing your pants, you would be shooting into the enemies face with the center mass hold. My Snider Enfield, Martini Henry and an 1871 Mauser all strike the same, about 14- 18" high at 50 yards. Try black powder in the rifle and you will be pleasantly surprised. Fashion yourself a slip on front sight which is higher.
 
Last edited:
I'm ordering a taller front sight. I've also got some Goex FFg that I want to try, probably this coming week. It will be interesting to compare the FFg with the 5744 as far as ballistics and accuracy goes.
 
Springfield 45-70

It was explained to me that a man is a tall thin target (some may be wider) and the point of shootin at em was to knock em over didnt matter where ya hit em so if you pointed at belt level you were bound to hit them somewheres if your windage was correct.
Try 13 grns of trail boss with the 405grn bullet for the days you dont feel like soakin brass and pouring gack out of your barrel.You will get laughed at because of the little pop but the accuracy is good.Graham
 
That lower cartridge looks cracked. It may be the picture, but have a look at it. If it is, pitch it. New .45-70 brass isn't hard to come by.
Most manuals will have smokeless cast and jacketed bullet data for a trap door. My Lyman manual certainly does. Shoot me an e-mail if you want it. toheir@hotmail.com
 
sunray said:
That lower cartridge looks cracked. It may be the picture, but have a look at it. If it is, pitch it. New .45-70 brass isn't hard to come by.
Most manuals will have smokeless cast and jacketed bullet data for a trap door. My Lyman manual certainly does. Shoot me an e-mail if you want it. toheir@hotmail.com
Click to expand...
By gum, it does look cracked! I just checked all the cartridges, one at a time, in that box and none of them are cracked, so it has to be an illusion. I've had some of those cases for 15 years and reloaded them countless times. They always fail via a crack at the mouth, where they are crimped. I've had to toss a few recently. I've annealed them, but they still only last about 50 -75 reloads.
 
"...only last about 50 -75 reloads..." And people whine about the cost of brass. How long ago do you figure the brass paid for itself?
 
I have been shooting trapdoor Springfields in BP cartridge rifle competition for nearly 30 years.
Our family standard has been and will always be the Lyman Mold #457193, cast of wheel weights...turns out a 420 grain flat nose bullet. Our lube has been hot box gear lubricant, Imperial Oil made this stuff. Don't waste your money on any of the exotic bullet weights (520 nose pour, paper patch bullets)...you will be disappointed, and get tired of wasting your time...we tried most of them and they did not work in the long run.
In the Trapdoor you need to run bullet diameter at around 0.460 with a felt wad or an Ox-Yoke 45 cal Wonder Wad behind it...this is in both BP and Smokeless loads. Enough FFg to fill the case to just above the cannelure ring on the case is about all you need...and yeah, we tried drop tubes...36 and 24 inch...just another step that did not produce measureable results. Stay away from cornmeal or any other exotic filler...they don't work!!!

You are probably asking how do I come by this info and what are the products of this?
I shot my first trapdoor in competition in 1974, and tried Sharps, Rolling blocks and Winchesters over the years...I always went back to the Trapdoor...WHY, you ask...Because it would out shoot anything on the line...PERIOD!!!!! We sat back and watched these fancy assed "Sharps shooters" fooling around with bullet seaters, patched bullets and huge cases filled to rim with Fg powder. They would fire one or two rounds that would spin them in a circle like a cork screw and they would be able to clap with their shoulder blades, then proudly strut as they put three out five shots in the scoring rings at 100 yards, shooting minute of garbage can at that range. Our old Trapdoors would be scoring 47 to 49 out of 50 at 100 yards, on a 2 inch ten ring...and those guys would get bent...big time!!!!
In my trophy cabinet there are over 250 shooting prizes, including an invitation to represent Montana at the State championship in Friendship Indiana, plus numerous Grand Aggregate awards from a variety of BP clubs. My dad has nearly 150 awards and my brother over 300...we all have used Trapdoors in BP cartridge competition. Why mess with a good thing!!!!
Cheers
BTW...Looks like a "Killer" 1888 rod bayonet rifle.
Cheers
 
Last edited:
Alonso, thanks for that info born out of your experience. I do have to say that I like the thought of the 420 grain flat nose. I've used them in my Winchester 1886's. The flat nose has better stopping power when hunting, than a round nose, and it does seem to me that the twist of the TD would be better suited to a 420 grain bullet than a 500 grain bullet. I have not ordered the 500 grain SAECO mould yet, and now you got me thinking seriously of the 420 grain bullet. The only advantage I can see to the 500 grain bullet is that the bullet would sit closer to the rifling lands.
 
We played with the 500 RN coming out of a Lyman 457125 mold(I think that was the number). We cast it with wheel weights...half pure half wheel Weights...all pure, and even spent hours measuring and mixing some stupid assed alloys like they said you should do in all the magazines of the time.
Well, in the end we stuck with the tried and true Lyman 457193.
I should mention we did try the Lee 405 RN, as well a gas check 405 equivalent...I think that was an RCBS or Ohaus mold...didn't work either.
I should also mention that my brother went to dark side and adopted a Pederzoli rolling block, which he intially swore at, after trying all that wild and wizzy stuff...he too then settled on the Lyman 420, and life was good for him.
I had a Shilo Sharps years ago in a 45 2 4/10", #1 sporter, pistol grip etc.. I got bit by the "Sharps" bug...it lasted about a year...then I went back to the trapdoor. The Sharps shot OK when you kept things simple. I tired paper patched bullets (No Good), heavy bullets (500gr. plus)and light bullets(300 gr) again NO GOOD, I tried FG with 24" and 36" drop tubes (worked not bad), magnum primers, standard primer pistol primer, blah, blah, (No Good), I tried unsized fired, cleaned case with a bullet set into the case with no crimp, you could drop the bulet out if you tipped the case upside down (No Good). After all this I just simply poured 85gr FFg into the case stomped a Lyman 420 into it with a Ox-Yoke wonder wad...and guess what...Life was good, the gun started to win matches, no less then third place in the first 15 matches it shot in, this included off hand events. Got rid of it because of an offer I could not refuse...made abour $500 on the deal...goodbye Sharps, hellooo trapdoor!!! The trophies kept coming in with a few Cartrdige rifle aggregates in there.
The only trick is to keep it simple and the gun will shoot and shoot very well.
Your are going to enjoy shooting it...now go out and let the trapdoor eat a few Sharps...it will be a happy gun.
Cheers
 
I have been 'lurking' in the background reading this interesting thread....

And I am dying to ask Alonzo.....are the H&R Trapdoor replicas up to the task?

Plus, there seems to be more cavlary carbines in the H&Rs available, than full size rifles....any experience with the shorter ones?

Or does the BP always require the longer tubes to perform?

thank you!
 
Alonzo, a fellow on another forum said that in his experience, the Lyman 457193 dropped them from the mould at no larger than .458. I assume your's is dropping them at least .460. Do you know of any other fellows with the Lyman 457193 that drop them at least .460? I don't want to purchase one of those moulds and then find out it doesn't drop them at least .460.

P.S. I had a bag of eleven cast bullets laying around that I thought might be 420 grain ones. I measured them at .4585 and weighed them at 413 grains lubed. Tonight loaded them over 21 grains of 2400, and a single sheet of 1-ply toilet paper loosely rolled and folded to keep the powder against the primer. Plan to try these out on Thursday. They aren't .460, but 2400 gives a pressure spike a little lower than BP, which may help bump them up, and I find the toilet paper acts as a poor man's gas check, improving accuracy, stopping gas leakage, and improving burning consistency. I'll chrono these loads as well and report the results on this forum.
 
Last edited:
My lyman no matter what alloy I tried would not drop them bigger than .458 Got a NEI in the size I needed now .
 
Not offhand...though a lot of fellows were using that mold here in Southern AB back in those days. There were not a lot of other mold builder around so we were pretty limited till the early 80's. In those days were there magazines specific to Blackpowder Cartridge guns, and there were more builders setting up shop. Straight out our 193 mold they measured 0.461...can't figure out why. The 125 mold came out at 0.459. We had a lubrisizer made in 460 after using(for nearly 20 years) a hand made 0.460 sizer. An option as Dez mentioned would be to approach NEI...though I don't knwo what configuration their mold is. The other option is to take the mold to a machinist to mill out a couple thousands from the bottom driving band...this may create problems with bullet release from the mold during casting.
Be careful with 2400, it burns fairly hot and prolonged use may cause some damage to the bore, especially in the old guns...newer guns it is not an issue. For a light smokeless load I have been running SR4759 with a dacron wad 3/4 inch square and the Ox-Yoke wonder wad...with the 420 it gives around 1100 FPS. I got the dacron from a craft store...my mother built snowmen out of tin cans covering them with this fluffy dacron stuff. I stole a chunk of it once and lit it with a match...good thing it was a small piece... any larger piece would have ended up as POOF..no eyebrows. There was no residue to speak of either.
Brutus...you asked about the H&R trapdoors...can't tell you much about them, other then it appears they changed the rifling style from their earlier Shikari single shots...these were button rifled and needed a very hard alloy cast bullet in order to make them shoot. If you recall the Shikari was a single shot break action similar to the common singe shot shotgun by Winchester and Remington...that gun would kick you into next week if you loaded it heavy. I tried an extra heavy smokeless load with a 405 jacketed bullet, DAMN...nearly got a brain concussion from firing it...took a week for my eyes to uncross!!!! Was fun though.
In 1991 I did test of the firearms used at the Custer battlefield, and presented the results at the annual symposium sponsored by the Custer Battlefield Historical Museum Association...it was printed in their 1992 issue of symposium papers. I was using an original 1873/79 trapdoor carbine as the test sample for the field research of the paper. That gun would consistantly group under 1.25 inch at 50 yards with the 420 cast and 54.5 grs Goex FFg...100 yards it would group in around 2.5 inches. In the field test we shot this gun(and several others) out to 1100 yards (aka 1 KM). We used a 4' by 6' plywood target to equate to men standing shoulder to shoulder. The 50-70 M1868 trapdoor would not reach that far with the sight on the gun, so we moved this one in to 900 yards. It was a fun experiment, with very interesting results. In that test we also shot a Henry, 1873 Winchester, Spencer Carbine, 50 cal Muzzleloader, 45-90 Sharps, and an M-1 Garand as standard. It took most of the summer to complete and compile the results...was a lot of fun.
Cheers
Dang...I get kind of long winded.


Win 38-55 said:
Alonzo, a fellow on another forum said that in his experience, the Lyman 457193 dropped them from the mould at no larger than .458. I assume your's is dropping them at least .460. Do you know of any other fellows with the Lyman 457193 that drop them at least .460? I don't want to purchase one of those moulds and then find out it doesn't drop them at least .460.

P.S. I had a bag of eleven cast bullets laying around that I thought might be 420 grain ones. I measured them at .4585 and weighed them at 413 grains lubed. Tonight loaded them over 21 grains of 2400, and a single sheet of 1-ply toilet paper loosely rolled and folded to keep the powder against the primer. Plan to try these out on Thursday. They aren't .460, but 2400 gives a pressure spike a little lower than BP, which may help bump them up, and I find the toilet paper acts as a poor man's gas check, improving accuracy, stopping gas leakage, and improving burning consistency. I'll chrono these loads as well and report the results on this forum.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Well, I loaded up my last eleven 413 grain bullets over 21 grains of 2400, with 1 sheet of 1-ply toilet paper to keep the powder against the primer. The load manuals gave different velocities for this 'low-end' load but the highest one was about 1,050 fps. I find that the toilet paper filler raises the pressure a bit, giving about 50 to 100 fps more than without the filler, so I was expecting a muzzle velocity no greater than 1,150 fps. Off to the range I went and set up the chronograph just to make sure. Most load tables are fairly close to actual chronograph readings, but I've found a few in the past that were badly off. I fired the first round and got a whopping 1,382 fps! I promptly packed up and went home. I'm saving the remaining 10 rounds for one of my stronger Winchester 1886's with a nickel steel barrel. I am wondering how the load info could be so far off. Perhaps it was done with a 22" barrel, rather than a 32 5/8" barrel. Does anyone know what an extra 10" barrel length does to velocity? Would it raise it by 200 fps?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom