You're forgetting the fact that this is a "public" range. Installing cameras under the justification of policing who is entering the range, whether they're legitimately allowed to be there, and to ensure public safety are all permissible reasons for said installation. As for the privacy laws, they apply to such places as bathrooms,etc. All you have to do is put up signage stating that the area is under surveillance; if they choose to come onbto the range after that, they are waiving any and all rights to so-called privacy on the range.
Ranges Ban Black Rifles?
- Thread starter JEC
- Start date
We're putting up cameras in our range. They will help me catch the next bastard who uses his/her large-calibre handgun to chainsaw through the target support framework. We will have a usage policy in place to protect members privacy.
Until some asshat steals it! I #### you not! I brought an old corn broom along to leave at my clubs firing line, as I was sick of walking on .22LR casings on the concrete. I figured to leave the broom there, so anyone could use it to sweep up their empties. Next trip back to the range. Lots of empty .22LR casings on the concrete & no broom!
You go buy a new broom shop magnet from Princess Auto & I can guarantee it won't be there the next time you visit the range. There's always one or two arseholes....
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
The problem with putting cameras on a public range is simply that, it's a public range and the next thing you're going to have a problem with is people vandalising or shooting the things. All the road signs down to the public ranges around here are peppered with bullet holes.
Any form of policing an unsupervised range is going to work on the "honour" system, which means it will be abused.
This is why gun clubs were invented after all, people got tired of shooting on ####ty ranges.
It's just the same with public golf courses and private clubs, to keep all the riffraff out.
I do think any range or club that doesn't make a significant attempt to monitor range use though is asking for trouble. Imagine if some criminals were arrested for possession of prohibited firearms and admitted to using them on that range.
I actually know of a case in the UK where that happened, the police were given a tip that unlicensed firearms were being used on a range, so the police did a sting operation, and stopped everyone leaving the range to check their paperwork and they did catch a couple of people (who it turned out had inherited guns and not registered them).
Next question to people responsible for running range: why were people using illegal firearms on your range?
Or how about this scenario, someone has an accident on your range, slips on brass and breaks their neck, or accidentally gets shot?
Imagine the questions you'd get asked after that happened, and what would happen!
If there's no sign-in, there's no formal written waiver of responsibility, and if the range is insured, no insurance company is going to pay out with a total lack of information to work with.
You can't get around it by saying the range is "public", someone is responsible for range safety, and whomever the public authority is, they still have a duty of care towards the people using it.
Any form of policing an unsupervised range is going to work on the "honour" system, which means it will be abused.
This is why gun clubs were invented after all, people got tired of shooting on ####ty ranges.
It's just the same with public golf courses and private clubs, to keep all the riffraff out.
I do think any range or club that doesn't make a significant attempt to monitor range use though is asking for trouble. Imagine if some criminals were arrested for possession of prohibited firearms and admitted to using them on that range.
I actually know of a case in the UK where that happened, the police were given a tip that unlicensed firearms were being used on a range, so the police did a sting operation, and stopped everyone leaving the range to check their paperwork and they did catch a couple of people (who it turned out had inherited guns and not registered them).
Next question to people responsible for running range: why were people using illegal firearms on your range?
Or how about this scenario, someone has an accident on your range, slips on brass and breaks their neck, or accidentally gets shot?
Imagine the questions you'd get asked after that happened, and what would happen!
If there's no sign-in, there's no formal written waiver of responsibility, and if the range is insured, no insurance company is going to pay out with a total lack of information to work with.
You can't get around it by saying the range is "public", someone is responsible for range safety, and whomever the public authority is, they still have a duty of care towards the people using it.
I hate to say it, but as for them "shooting the cameras"... if you have them installed by a professional company, they overlap the camera fields so that at least 2 are recording what is done in the range of each camera. So yes, somebody can shoot it, but with todays technology and capability of enhancing the recordings, you have them on camera doing so. Unless they walk in wearing a ski mask or something equivalent covering their face the entire time, you will have their face and all you have to do is make the attempt of canvassing the honest members to find out who that person is. Then, you take them to court for willful destruction of private property.
yes, it takes some time and energy to do this. But if you truly want to stop this, that's what you're gonna have to do.
yes, it takes some time and energy to do this. But if you truly want to stop this, that's what you're gonna have to do.
The outdoor range I shoot at has gravel at the fireing line consisting mostly of .22 brass and 7.62x39 casings.I wish people would leave their brass behind I'll be glad to pick it up! Just level out the empties with a rake and call it range gravel its free and it sounds neet when you walk on it
I have unfortunately experienced MANY old fellows at the SPF& G to be THE LEAST friendly shooters I have met. I have shot at ranges in several countries, and many across our own country.
On at least three occasions I have had some elderly gentleman come over and harass me about how my guns were bad, how they should be banned, how they give a bad image, etc. Sneers, head shaking and pointing were not uncommon at other times as well.
The first time this happened I was a little shocked, but tried to engage the old guy in some useful discussion, but he just turned his back,shook his hand at me and shuffled away.
About a year later the same thing happened. May even have been the same guy, thick Germanic accent. I just stared at him and drooled a little. He went away.
Two weeks later another "expert" informed me that, as a member of the executive, he disagreed with allowing "assault guns" to shoot along with others. I dropped my head, mentioned that it was the same rifle I defended his freedom with, and went back to shooting. He went away, but the first-time member with me couldn't believe it.
God has a sense of humor, because we got to help push his little pick up out of the snowdrift just outside the gate.
I left a message on the club answering machine about my concerns, but it was never returned. I voted with my feet, as I was / am a member at two other ranges in Edmonton.
My experiences are in no way unique. Rob AK here will echo them. A general attitude of hostility existed from some members - including executive- towards Service Rifle / Pistol competitions that Peter Z----- used to run there. A one-time President was overheard complaining to a local gun store owner about the flyer advertising a Service Rifle shoot, how "those guys just shoot lots, don't hit much, wreck the range...."
So why am I complaining? Not just because I will speak the truth when I see it, but so that those running the club now understand where the level of resentment shared by many service rifle shooters comes from. Right or wrong, real or imagined, SPF&G has an reputation and bad history of intolerance.
This latest complaint about brass is just a thinly veiled effort to rid the range of "bad guns", and fits the pattern I have seen there.
SPF&G is a good "Fur and feathers" type rod & gun club, with a great fishing pond, a neat club house to warm up and relax in, and a nice black powder trail. My kids loved being out there.
I just cannot be part of such madness as apparently still infects this club.
Please feel free to PM me if you wish, I can meet for coffee to discuss this.
Sadly,
Ben
On at least three occasions I have had some elderly gentleman come over and harass me about how my guns were bad, how they should be banned, how they give a bad image, etc. Sneers, head shaking and pointing were not uncommon at other times as well.
The first time this happened I was a little shocked, but tried to engage the old guy in some useful discussion, but he just turned his back,shook his hand at me and shuffled away.
About a year later the same thing happened. May even have been the same guy, thick Germanic accent. I just stared at him and drooled a little. He went away.
Two weeks later another "expert" informed me that, as a member of the executive, he disagreed with allowing "assault guns" to shoot along with others. I dropped my head, mentioned that it was the same rifle I defended his freedom with, and went back to shooting. He went away, but the first-time member with me couldn't believe it.
God has a sense of humor, because we got to help push his little pick up out of the snowdrift just outside the gate.
I left a message on the club answering machine about my concerns, but it was never returned. I voted with my feet, as I was / am a member at two other ranges in Edmonton.
My experiences are in no way unique. Rob AK here will echo them. A general attitude of hostility existed from some members - including executive- towards Service Rifle / Pistol competitions that Peter Z----- used to run there. A one-time President was overheard complaining to a local gun store owner about the flyer advertising a Service Rifle shoot, how "those guys just shoot lots, don't hit much, wreck the range...."
So why am I complaining? Not just because I will speak the truth when I see it, but so that those running the club now understand where the level of resentment shared by many service rifle shooters comes from. Right or wrong, real or imagined, SPF&G has an reputation and bad history of intolerance.
This latest complaint about brass is just a thinly veiled effort to rid the range of "bad guns", and fits the pattern I have seen there.
SPF&G is a good "Fur and feathers" type rod & gun club, with a great fishing pond, a neat club house to warm up and relax in, and a nice black powder trail. My kids loved being out there.
I just cannot be part of such madness as apparently still infects this club.
Please feel free to PM me if you wish, I can meet for coffee to discuss this.
Sadly,
Ben
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stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Why can I never find fudds like that!
I would welcome the opportunity to "discuss" the situation with them.
I would welcome the opportunity to "discuss" the situation with them.
BattleRife
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- of No Fixed Address
When are you going to the club to meet people like this? I have been a member at SPFG since March, and have been there at least a dozen times. When I go, I am usually there for 6 hours or so. I think there was one occasion where I wasn't shooting an AR-15. My M-14 is with me every time. I have also had my Mini-14, SKS, unmodified Lee-Enfield and numerous handguns there.
I have never once had someone comment on the "incorrectness" of my choice in firearms. I am rarely the only one there with military semi-autos. I run into people with CZ-858, TAVOR, Swiss Arms, M-14, AR and XCR rifles all the time. The range monitor never gives me a hard time. Nobody ever gives me a hard time. A couple of the "fudds" shooting bolts actions have commented on how much fun it looked like to shoot the semi-sutos. I have let several of them (or their kids) shoot my stuff.
I say SPFG is the best club I have ever shot at, and among the most open. Hell, even the trap shooters didn't raise an eyebrow when I said I was going to shoot my AR-15 when done with clays.
You guys must have lousy timing.
I have never once had someone comment on the "incorrectness" of my choice in firearms. I am rarely the only one there with military semi-autos. I run into people with CZ-858, TAVOR, Swiss Arms, M-14, AR and XCR rifles all the time. The range monitor never gives me a hard time. Nobody ever gives me a hard time. A couple of the "fudds" shooting bolts actions have commented on how much fun it looked like to shoot the semi-sutos. I have let several of them (or their kids) shoot my stuff.
I say SPFG is the best club I have ever shot at, and among the most open. Hell, even the trap shooters didn't raise an eyebrow when I said I was going to shoot my AR-15 when done with clays.
You guys must have lousy timing.
No... the answer is simple.. ACCOUNTABILITY.. you are responsible to clean up your own brass.. if you do not, then your membership will be suspended.. members who do not report other members (when witnessed) are just as responsible and will be suspended as if they do not report it..
There is no need to "ban" or segregated any type of shooter.. the problem is with INDIVIDUALs, so keep the punishment at an individual level.
If the Board of the club catches someone, then post their names up on a board and say.. "These are the PIGS that you have to cleanup after, to keep this range from being closed down.."
I like it when the fudds start talking about Lesbo camo and saying that the deer can't really see red and people who wear any camo are strange etc. and how they shot their last "kill" in the neck, face, leg, etc. before finally bringing it down. All this after they drift on to the range after a service rifle shoot. I then shake my head at my sub moa group, while looking at their "minute of pie plate" and smirking. I still hunt , but not with #######s anymore.
