ratio of A's to C's in production
- Thread starter hal1955
- Start date
If you follow the 90 - 95% rule you should be shooting in the money. 90% for level 1's and 2's, and closer to 95% for level 3's or above if you want to be competitive. In Production, you should consider a "D" hit unacceptable, and "C" hits should be an occasional thing only.
hal1955 said:
Dont' forget.. IPSC is not jus about A's.. it's how fast you shoot them..
shooting all A's in twice the time is not going to get you very far up the ranks..
(as one production shooter in our club keeps finding out..)
my rule of thumb is to shot as fast as you can get 80% A's.. once you are there, then increase the speed factor, as you get a higher ratio of A's.
- Location
- Halifax - NS
OK for Major, but the guys got it right above for minor...ckc123 said:
Yes, but the guys above do not mention the time aspect, which is an important factor.
The question was based on being competitive.. you can't be competitive f you get 100% A's but in 3 times the time of everyone else (who get 90% A's).
Major or minor, the time is an important factor.. it's the ratio of longer shorter time window that would change between a minor and major scoring..
The question was based on being competitive.. you can't be competitive f you get 100% A's but in 3 times the time of everyone else (who get 90% A's).
Major or minor, the time is an important factor.. it's the ratio of longer shorter time window that would change between a minor and major scoring..
- Location
- On the firing line
Time is a factor, example: I shot a stage and got the full 45 points in 8 seconds, but bartledan shot the same stage in 4 seconds with a mike and ended up with 28 points. My hit factor was 5.62 his was 7.
Of course time is a factor; that is a given. But in any major match you will usually that find most of the top shooters are within very small increments of each other time-wise for any given stage. The deciding factor is always the points, and this is true across all divisions, but is especially true in Production.
You have to compare apples with apples, and a 4 second time against an 8 second time isn't even in the same ball park. But say you shot it in 6 seconds; a full 2 seconds slower but with the points. Your hit factor would have been 7.5 and you would have beat him solidly. Looked at another way; with his miss, Bartledan through away the equivilent of about 1.5 seconds.
You have to compare apples with apples, and a 4 second time against an 8 second time isn't even in the same ball park. But say you shot it in 6 seconds; a full 2 seconds slower but with the points. Your hit factor would have been 7.5 and you would have beat him solidly. Looked at another way; with his miss, Bartledan through away the equivilent of about 1.5 seconds.
relliott said:
But it is..
The whole concept of IPSC scoring is based on Power, Speed, and Accuracy. All three of them effect the stage score. . A 1/2 second difference on a speed shoot can make a big difference compared to a long course.
having a 4 second time with several C's or D's can be the same as 8 seconds with all A's.
The winner of Russellmania shot 80% of the possible raw points (half As, half Cs)
The winner of Ont Provincials shot 85% of the possible raw points (little better than half As, rest Cs)
The winner of the Nationals shot 92% of the possible raw points (so better than 3 As and 1 C for every 2 targets)
The winner of the NS Provincials shot 90% of the possible raw points (exactly 3 As and 1 C for every 2 targets)
The winner of the Quebec provincial shot 92% of the max possible raw points
Bottom line - you cannot miss fast enough to win, no matter how fast you think you can go. And by miss, I mean miss the As, not miss the target. Few lower hits are usually unavoidable, but they should be treated as misses.
You should think of this as "how fast can I shoot all As". It's not doable, but that's what you should be aiming for. Ohh, and forget about Ds, D is a real MISS, just without the penalty.
I always tell new IPSC shooters, take your time, shoot all As, and I guarantee you, you will not be at the bottom, no matter how slow you go. It always proves to be true.
The winner of Ont Provincials shot 85% of the possible raw points (little better than half As, rest Cs)
The winner of the Nationals shot 92% of the possible raw points (so better than 3 As and 1 C for every 2 targets)
The winner of the NS Provincials shot 90% of the possible raw points (exactly 3 As and 1 C for every 2 targets)
The winner of the Quebec provincial shot 92% of the max possible raw points
Bottom line - you cannot miss fast enough to win, no matter how fast you think you can go. And by miss, I mean miss the As, not miss the target. Few lower hits are usually unavoidable, but they should be treated as misses.
You should think of this as "how fast can I shoot all As". It's not doable, but that's what you should be aiming for. Ohh, and forget about Ds, D is a real MISS, just without the penalty.
I always tell new IPSC shooters, take your time, shoot all As, and I guarantee you, you will not be at the bottom, no matter how slow you go. It always proves to be true.
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ckc123 said:
Yes, that's true, but it wasn't my point. An 8 second time on a stage that should take 4 seconds isn't going to be a winning run, any more than a 4 second time down half of the available points is. Sure, maybe they ballance each other out, but I was talking about what it takes to win. So again, if most of the top shooters are usually within small increments of time on a stage, then the deciding factor usually ends up being accuracy. Bottom line; it doesn't really take any more time to shoot accurately. It just takes greater attention, so you might as well go for the points.
At the end of the spectrum where the top shooters are all competing for the stage win, it's nearly impossible to go faster without dropping points. Therefore, the only way to gain ground on the other top guys is to shoot more points.
It's far easier to increase your A count than it is to go faster for the same amount of gain. I would say that even in Open and Standard, if you want to be winning, you need to shoot 90% A's.
It's far easier to increase your A count than it is to go faster for the same amount of gain. I would say that even in Open and Standard, if you want to be winning, you need to shoot 90% A's.
speed will not, for most part, make up for bad shots. Shooting on the move will not make up shooting Cs and Ds, in place of As. In a field course, for example, the time it take you to shoot is a very small percentage of the overall time: saving 0.1s on each shot gets lots in the hassle, if it means that you'll end up with lots of Cs and Ds. let's look at a concrete example:
32 rounds, 160 points field course, 30s run. if you shoot A-C on each target that means that someone who shoots all As can shoot it up to 6 seconds slower, and still beat you. If you throw in any Ds, the math changes even more.
Yes, it is not about raw points, it is about hit factor, but losing points, in most cases, will hurt your HF more than gaining a little bit of time will help it.
let me give you one example where the opposite was true, from this past weekend. One of the stages in the NS provincials had the shooter start at the very back of the range - you had to run maybe 7-8m to your right, shoot a popper at 50years, then run back to your starting point, keep going another 7-8m, shoot another popper at 50yards, then run back to your starting positing and run down range, shooting targets on the move. It was a 160point field course, which ipsc1 run in just over 40s. I was forced to slap my trigger to keep the gun working (technical issues), so I figured those 50yard shots were going to kill me on time. So, I was watching my watch when ipsc1 was running, and I figured it took him about 15s to take care of the two poppers and get back to the starting position, to start the run down. That's more than 1/3 of the overall time. Now, I figured, say I ignore those two poppers - I get 2 Mikes, 2 FTE, that's 50 points. 50 points is less than 1/3 of the overall points, so as long as I shoot max points running down, I'll be more or less equal to ipsc1, in HF. That's what I did, and it worked out great, EXCEPT I should have kept my eyes on my sights a split second longer on one of the targets - without that (stupid, point blank) Mike, I would have been about 98.7% (with 2 Mikes and 2 FTE). As it was, with that extra Mike, mid 80s. haha, yeah, if you know off the bat that you'll be 50 points down, you can't afford to lose any more
1 152 40.71 3.7337 160.0000 100.00 30 ipsc1
2 85 27.14 3.1319 134.2105 83.88 20 omen
I was aiming for this:
1 152 40.71 3.7337 160.0000 100.00 30 ipsc1
2 100 27.14 3.6846 157.8959 98.68 20 omen
So, yes, under some conditions, it can make sense to sacrifice a lot of points, in exchange for even more time, but those are very rare.
32 rounds, 160 points field course, 30s run. if you shoot A-C on each target that means that someone who shoots all As can shoot it up to 6 seconds slower, and still beat you. If you throw in any Ds, the math changes even more.
Yes, it is not about raw points, it is about hit factor, but losing points, in most cases, will hurt your HF more than gaining a little bit of time will help it.
let me give you one example where the opposite was true, from this past weekend. One of the stages in the NS provincials had the shooter start at the very back of the range - you had to run maybe 7-8m to your right, shoot a popper at 50years, then run back to your starting point, keep going another 7-8m, shoot another popper at 50yards, then run back to your starting positing and run down range, shooting targets on the move. It was a 160point field course, which ipsc1 run in just over 40s. I was forced to slap my trigger to keep the gun working (technical issues), so I figured those 50yard shots were going to kill me on time. So, I was watching my watch when ipsc1 was running, and I figured it took him about 15s to take care of the two poppers and get back to the starting position, to start the run down. That's more than 1/3 of the overall time. Now, I figured, say I ignore those two poppers - I get 2 Mikes, 2 FTE, that's 50 points. 50 points is less than 1/3 of the overall points, so as long as I shoot max points running down, I'll be more or less equal to ipsc1, in HF. That's what I did, and it worked out great, EXCEPT I should have kept my eyes on my sights a split second longer on one of the targets - without that (stupid, point blank) Mike, I would have been about 98.7% (with 2 Mikes and 2 FTE). As it was, with that extra Mike, mid 80s. haha, yeah, if you know off the bat that you'll be 50 points down, you can't afford to lose any more
1 152 40.71 3.7337 160.0000 100.00 30 ipsc1
2 85 27.14 3.1319 134.2105 83.88 20 omen
I was aiming for this:
1 152 40.71 3.7337 160.0000 100.00 30 ipsc1
2 100 27.14 3.6846 157.8959 98.68 20 omen
So, yes, under some conditions, it can make sense to sacrifice a lot of points, in exchange for even more time, but those are very rare.
"So, yes, under some conditions, it can make sense to sacrifice a lot of points, in exchange for even more time, but those are very rare."
Those rare occasions usually go to stage design. We've all seen stages with disappearing targets where someone figures out that the hit factor is higher if you just blow them off, and then it just becomes sort of a non-stage.
Those rare occasions usually go to stage design. We've all seen stages with disappearing targets where someone figures out that the hit factor is higher if you just blow them off, and then it just becomes sort of a non-stage.
