Rauch Tactical Multi Mount Rail a VZ58 / 858 scope mounting rail.

[palinak]

Nice job on the rail, I have a few of my own questions.
In your last post you showed you had to grind of a rear part of the mount to allow it slide forward. Are there any other mounts that need grinding? I have an AK mount sitting in front of me (like the one you are not going to discuss) and looks to me like the whole back part has to be grinded off if you would want it to slide forward. I’m curious what your thoughts are on why the mounts were designed this way in the first place, not to slide freely forward past a certain point. I mean if you look at the SVD mount and SVD/AK rail (I have both of them sitting in front of me) the SVD mount has small lug in the front and the SVD rail has small slot for that lug which is terminated in the front preventing the mount to slide freely forward.
With all the AKs out in the world and all the crazy mods I haven’t seen one with a long side rail.
Oh btw did you run your tests without a muzzle brake to see how it handles recoil since grinding off the not important recoil blocking?

 

[suprathepeg]

Nice job on the rail, I have a few of my own questions. Are there any other mounts that need grinding? I have an AK mount sitting in front of me (like the one you are not going to discuss) and looks to me like the whole back part has to be grinded off if you would want it to slide forward. In your last post you showed you had to grind of a rear part of the mount to allow it slide forward.

You could use it if you like and you would have to remove the same material as in the pics shown. The main reason I suggest the older style AK mounts are not ideal for the VZ58 is that they sit pretty high, There seems to me no point in raising the optic higher then needs be.

I’m curious what your thoughts are on why the mounts were designed this way in the first place, not to slide freely forward past a certain point. I mean if you look at the SVD mount and SVD/AK rail (I have both of them sitting in front of me) the SVD mount has small lug in the front and the SVD rail has small slot for that lug which is terminated in the front preventing the mount to slide freely forward.

My first post in the thread:

One of the key features of the Multi Mount Rail is multiple mounting distances so you can mount whatever optic/mount you want in a variety of eye reliefs and still have RTZ if you remove it. There is a movable eye relief stopper. This can be moved to any of the threaded holes in the rail in 1/2 inch increments. This way you can remove or add a red dot or scope with repeatable zero at an eye relief that is comfortable for you.

If you look at the rail you will see the threaded holes. The stopper can be placed in a variety of forward positions to deal with the lug on SVD bases and several rearward postions to deal with modified AK mounts. The second pic in the thread shows this.

With all the AKs out in the world and all the crazy mods I haven’t seen one with a long side rail.

and???

Oh btw did you run your tests without a muzzle brake to see how it handles recoil since grinding off the not important recoil blocking?

If you look at the picture I posted we only removed enough material to clear the dovetail, the tab at the end of the mount is still there. 500+ rounds with that mount in one day and zero issues with movement of the optic or mount.

 

[twyeh]

From the pictures, It seems like the deflector is blocking the iron sights, Would this mean we will not be able to use the iron sights with the deflector in place?

 

[suprathepeg]

The only thing you see in the pictures are is not as it will be sold is the deflector. The pictures however look worse then it is. Let me get the new deflectors and then I'll post up pictures of the view of the irons.

 

[H Wally]

Hmmm - those offset sights are interesting... especially that PKA red dot.

I'm curious though - could anything be done to center them over the reciever? A dot sight is less important, but a scope could be a PITA if it isn't centered. Is it that the rail assy pushes it too far out or what?

Could the original mounting system center it?

 

[suprathepeg]

Hmmm - those offset sights are interesting... especially that PKA red dot.

I'm curious though - could anything be done to center them over the reciever? A dot sight is less important, but a scope could be a PITA if it isn't centered. Is it that the rail assy pushes it too far out or what?

Could the original mounting system center it?

No the POSP, PSO, PKA and similar optics are designed to sit offset. That doesn't stop snipers from taking 500m shots though. Our rail is about the same distance from the bore as the rail on an SVD.

The PK01 optic is centered over the bore.

 

[skss]

Hello all looks like i bought an cz585 tactical 2 just about the right time heehee as in hope i don't have to wait to long to get a rail for it!

Anywho I am hoping that my previous contact with Sean confirmed me in the buyers list. Glad to be abroad and thank to all for a great looking product hell i'll even thank Dr. for weaseling all the extra info and photos onto this forum which has become quite a long read.

Before seen this thread i was looking at a leaper 3-9X32 compact but now I have been looking at the POSP stuff too and I have a couple of question. The eastwave fixed power with a the posp version for SVD would this be a good setup? however not nearly as compact as the leapers! I am a little confused about which scope to by also the posp is going to be offset right? can i use this scope on another fire arm or does it do side mount only? does kilanta have a better mount i think i would like centered better but not sure maybe some pros and cons about a setup might be a good idea at this point. Conventionally i would like things to be centered just looks/seems better.

 

[suprathepeg]

The POSP is side mount only, so its pretty safe to say it will only work on the VZ or another rifle with side rail.

Kalinka has some mounts that will center the optic but the best one I've found is the PK01 mount. In the end I think you would probably like the 4x24 POSP if you're on a budget. The offset is a bit to get used to but once you've shot it a bit it is as natural as any other optic.

POSP

Pros:

-Priced well
-decient glass especially for the price.
-Very nice turret system that is adjustable for windage and range once zeroed.
-Good quality especially for the price.
-Comes with the mount so its easy to setup and go.
-Can be a very accurate optic system.

Cons:

-It is offset.

 

[hutchster]

who sells the PK01 and with 1" rings?

thanks
hutchster

 

[suprathepeg]

who sells the PK01 and with 1" rings?

thanks
hutchster

The PK01 is sold by Eastwave.ca. The rings are 30mm so perfect for an Aimpoint or other 30mm tubed optic. I know John is using the mount with 1" ring inserts and he's quite happy with it. Its a nice mount none the less because it allows the optic to sit nice and low, doesn't obstruct the view of the irons, and is pretty light.

 

[Dr.Lector]

Since you have started this little game traffic in this thread has gone way up, we've gotten more orders and dealer orders.

Wow... I’m so glad to hear that
So are you going to make a donation
or send me a prize, or a gift, or what?
At least give me a hug or something





I guess now it’s my turn to show you pics and give examples of Belomos.
Do you remember when I was telling you about mounts with larger off-sets,
like 16-20mm??? Here is one good example. It's made by Belomo.

I'm not going to show any of the mounts using the early model AK base like this:
.
.
.

They don't work with the multi eye relief feature of our rail. Now If Lector wants to send me his, I'll be glad to throw up some pics to make him happy.

Yes, I remember you said that before.

They will mount but only in the one position (furthest back), if you look at your AK mount you'll see why. The female portion of the dovetail (on the AK mount) cups the back of the male portion (rail itself). Like I said it mounts in the one position and is fine for a close to the eye mounted red dot.

However, innitially, in post number 1 in this thread you said otherwise

........ One of the key features of the Multi Mount Rail is multiple mounting distances so you can mount whatever optic/mount you want in a variety of eye reliefs and still have RTZ if you remove it. There is a movable eye relief stopper. This can be moved to any of the threaded holes in the rail in 1/2 inch increments...........

These 2 conflicting statements created a lot of confusion.


But after you explained, I understand now that you propose
the modification by grinding or machining
of the mount that you call Ak type, so it can slide freely anywhere on the base.

But how do you preset the repeatable eye-relief distance?
I don't see that little stopper in any of these pictures:

Did you eliminate the stopper because it's useless,
or because you didn't care about "repeatable eye-relief distances"
in that particular situation,
or simply because you decided the stopper is not necessary any more?

Wouldn't that stopper be needed to prevent movement of the mount under recoil
(like palinak tried to suggest earlier)??
The way I see it, your stopper was supposed
to work together with the little recoil lug
on both either the AK or the SVD mount,
in order to prevent movement under recoil.

AK type mount, recoil lug in the back:

SVD mount, recoil lug in the front:

I am asking this because I don't see that stopper in any of your previous settings
where you show the complete set-up rifle/rail/mount/scope,
(not even in pictures of the set-up where you use the SVD type mount
that you said it works best with your rail).

 

[suprathepeg]

I'm gonna update the first post in this thread with some of the info that has come up over the last few weeks and weed out any of my posts that were posted during development, this should help to remove some confusion that I'm sure is being felt by some readers.

Lector a couple days ago I ordered a PSO AK base so I can show everyone what I've been talking about. I'll post up the pics of the rifle with this mount when it arrives sometime next week.

Today the high POSP/PSO mount arrived and I gotta say I'm really not impressed. This mount is quite a bit different then the low once I have already posted. The offset is different by .147" to the left or just over 1/8" so it in fact will not sit centered over the bot and it offset to the left by about 3/16". Honestly it looks like the QC on these mounts is not so much based on a standard as well I don't know. At this point I'm not sure I would recommend these mounts for any weapon where you cared about center over bore cause it seems you can't be sure what you're gonna get. The mount I got today is over 1/8" further to the left then the PK01 and the low mount which both center over the bore fine. I don't know if the one I got is a random divergence from the norm or if all the POSP/PSO mounts are like this.
There are three parts of the mounts that are different: the base, the curved portion and the position of the picatinny rail. Anyhow here are some pics of the mount as promised:

Here you can see the offset. It actually looks worse then it is. You can also see that this mount sits quite high, but the irons are clearly visible.

Here are the two mounts side by side and you can see the difference in them:

In the pictures with the variety of optics mounted I didn't bother to install the spacer, call me lazy but you still get the idea. The pictures in "the field" do have the stopper installed but its hard to see in those pics, I circled it here:

In this pic you can see the various mounting positions that the rail comes with. The ones circled in red are to accommodate modified AK mounts such as you see in the picture above. The ones circled in green are to accommodate the SVD mounts.

In regards to the PK-AS you pictured, of course it won't be centered over the bore and its no longer available according to Zenit-Belomo. The rail is designed to replicate the SVD characteristics as best as possible with a bunch of added features to make it better. Optics that are designed to work a certain way on a Russian side mount equipped rifle will function that way on the VZ58 with our system. Given there is no perfect system but I honestly think our rail is better then any found on a Russian rifle and the only system that I know of which allows the user to mount an variety of optics and in such a way that the rifle can be cleaned without disturbing the optic. Barring the scout mount which is pretty limited and must be removed every time you clean unless you modify your UHG.

 

[Dr.Lector]

Hello Suprathepeg, that's nice to hear some further explanations.
Thank you


I am still not entirely sure what mounts are too high
and which are too low for factory sights to be used at the same time with a scope.
It seems that innitially you tested only a couple of mounts
and you posted your conlusion that it will work with ALL the mounts.
But now you are still ordering mounts all the time to test them
and still waiting to receive them so you can post pics.









In the following 3 pictures I fail to see the stopper
(that you just learned it's part of the recoil system).
I doubt the setup in these pictures contain anything of that nature,
because I can't see it.

But if it is something there, whatever it is,
it doesn't look like your initial "stopper" posted earlier in the thread:

I think you understand now the reason I politely and repeatedly suggested
that you should take your time and post some CORRECT and COMPLETE pictures,
do you remember that?

Please take your time. Nobody is rushing you. Finish the product testing first.

It would actualy be better if you guys take your time and post
some [B/]correct, complete and outstanding pics[/B] with the right set-up
without feeling rushed

However, you simply suggested that I throw poo...



Speaking of which, I tried to give you all the time in the world to correct
some of the designing and functional mistakes on your setup along the thread.
You had already edited some posts ("for useless and confusing content" - you say),
but IMHO there are still some things in your design that may raise eyebrows.


For example, the way I see it, (IMHO) your stopper is assembled wrong in most of your pictures.
But if one day you will find somebody who has enough patience to explain to you
exactly how recoil works, you may find out that firearms will recoil on a rearward direction.

To cut a long story short, this is the right hand side of a mount that you call SVD type.

So, wouldn't be wise that your stopper be IN FRONT of the recoil lug of the mount?
Like this:

If the above is correct, your stopper (about 1/2" in lenght) would be (partially) visible from outside,
right?







Consequently, your stopper would be visible IN FRONT of the mount on your pictures here,
but I can't see it:

I think the reason I can't see the stopper,
is because YOUR STOPPER IS BEHIND the recoil lug of the mount,
and I wonder why, because in that way, unfortunately your mount will move under recoil.
If you wonder how I know the stopper is BEHIND the recoil lug in that picture,
is from the way you took the pictures:

First, you took this picture:

After that pic, I am assuming that, without even moving the rifle,
you only slided the mount on the rail from the front towards the back
and you took this picture:

Why I say that you didn't even bother to move the rifle in order to reposition the recoil lug,
is because if you look again at the last two pics,
you can see that bellow the trigger guard and in front of the pistol grip,
there are the same crimples (folds) in the paper/tissue used as a background.

BTW, did you ever wonder why is that on the original setups,
the SVD mount slides from behind on a forward direction?

 

[Dr.Lector]

So, to prevent movement under recoil
THE STOPPER HAS TO BE IN FRONT OF THE RECOIL LUG,
every time, with no exceptions, like this:

As for the last picture, it seems there is no room left on the rail at all
to assemble the stopper in front of the mount, so I have to assume (again)
that the stopper is somewhere on the rail BEHIND THE RECOIL LUG,
and I wonder why.
(Some people may even say that in this last picture,
the front dovetail of the mount doesn't even fully engage on the rail
but it may be only the result of a photo trick).




I was surprised that in the whole thread, I could not find one single picture
of your setup where you use your favourite mount (SVD)
with the stopper assembled correctly, IN FRONT OF THE RECOIL LUG.


Oh, I almost forgot, if you want to, you can send me a rail
and I can fix for you all the mistakes and misfortunes we talked so far
(and some other ones that I didn't point out),
of course, with the only condition that you machined the dovetail straight.
I can do this for free, you don't have to worry about money, palinak is paying (back).


I wish you all the best.

 

[suprathepeg]

I updated the initial post and changed some pics that were old with more up to date ones. I also tried to add as much relevant info from the rest of this thread to make it easier for people to get the jist of things.

If people are looking to learn more about Russian rails, the mounts or optics this is a fantastic site with a ton of information: tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/

I am still not entirely sure what mounts are too high
and which are too low for factory sights to be used at the same time with a scope.
It seems that initially you tested only a couple of mounts
and you posted your conclusion that it will work with ALL the mounts.
But now you are still ordering mounts all the time to test them
and still waiting to receive them so you can post pics.

Too high is a matter of personal preference I guess, for me if my chin is floating then its too high. Ideal height is whats comfortable for the user. I have had a variety of Russian spec mounts/optics over the last 2 years including setups using the AK base like:

and

During that time I got rid of a lot of the mounts etc. About 6 months or so ago I started Rauch Tactical and designing the MultiMount Rail using my original adapted AK rail as the starting point. I know how certain mounts functioned and the dimensions etc. In order to prove to you that I'm not some crackpot I've ordered mounts I have previously sold to show function. Honestly IMHO the POSP/PSO mounts and variations thereof are not ideal for magnified optics on the VZ period especially after seeing the variations in them available from various sources now. In regards to the last mount I have discussed (with halosight mounted) I have contacted Kalinka about it and looking on the net it may be a Chicom knockoff of the Zenit-Belomo mounts. I'm awaiting an answer from Kalinka.


The problem with adapting most of the gen 1 type AK bases is that the VZ58 is not the AK. Yes you can use it to mount a red dot but scopes suck and that is what I was going for.

Here are a couple pics of the positioning of the Russian rail on the AK:

You can't replicate this with the VZ58 without extending the rail forward of the lighting cuts like we have done, we just took it a step further and gave shooters a variety of placement and height options. Placing a short AK type rail inside the lightning cut on the VZ58 results in the optic/mount being further back and generally higher then on the AK. AK mounts were designed to address the limitations of the AK receiver when using SVD optics and mounts, with the MultiMount Rail you don't need to do this.

So, to prevent movement under recoil
THE STOPPER HAS TO BE IN FRONT OF THE RECOIL LUG,
every time, with no exceptions, like this:

Yes. Keep in mind though that you used pictures of the prototype mock up, but yes you're right. In the pic I already noted the stopper is in place its just hard to see. One of my attempts at making my own rail resulted in the optic falling off the end of the rail because there was nothing to stop it, lol.

Just so people understand common western rails like the weaver or picatinny ones have slots which accomplish the same thing as our stopper.

Speaking of which, I tried to give you all the time in the world to correct
some of the designing and functional mistakes on your setup along the thread.
You had already edited some posts ("for useless and confusing content" - you say),
but IMHO there are still some things in your design that may raise eyebrows.

This was all stuff that was posted before the final prototype rail was constructed so yes the info was useless and confusing given what we have now. The great thing about the net is you can have all the opinions you want whether or not they're shared is another issue entirely.

BTW, did you ever wonder why is that on the original setups,
the SVD mount slides from behind on a forward direction?

Not entirely true the latest generation (that I'm aware of) allows for the mounting of AK red dots and traditional SVD bases using a longer hybrid rail:

For example, the way I see it, (IMHO) your stopper is assembled wrong in most of your pictures.
But if one day you will find somebody who has enough patience to explain to you
exactly how recoil works, you may find out that firearms will recoil on a rearward direction.

But if one day you will find somebody who has enough patience to explain to you
exactly how recoil works, you may find out that firearms will recoil on a rearward direction.

Speaking of which, I tried to give you all the time in the world to correct
some of the designing and functional mistakes on your setup along the thread.

Wow baseless insults, nicely done.

Oh, I almost forgot, if you want to, you can send me a rail
and I can fix for you all the mistakes and misfortunes we talked so far
(and some other ones that I didn't point out),
of course, with the only condition that you machined the dovetail straight.
I can do this for free, you don't have to worry about money, palinak is paying (back).

Given you're guys previous statements this is a pretty hilarious offer, I think we'll be fine on our own for now. IIRC and I could be wrong, you tried to do this with FN, how did that work for you? Maybe you can show us how the AK setup the two of you are playing with is superior? You could start by getting P**l to pay for dealer status.

I've been pretty open, showing our development and functional end results. You can manipulate this to show whatever you want but in the end the rail works and it works well. You're the only one who appears to have trouble believing this and thats fine. I'm going to send out a couple rails with preproduction deflectors to users and let them comment on its function. You can comment on their threads too I guess.

 

[RobAK]

Stormbringer's post seemed pretty clear to me. Keep the posts respectful.
Infraction sent.

 

[swift81]

I sure appreciate all the hard work that has gone into this thread, ( especially by Lector). It has been very informative ( mostly from his end) and has really opened my eyes....

What is trying to be created here is an excellent thing for our shooting community, but I wouldn't start chattering about anything I was making until I had done all the homework that Lector has obviously done.


Yes his comments may be blunt ( but mostly ammusing ), he means well. For me it has shown me that for my collection I would NOT want to have to purchase something that may need potential upgrades.

That is just my opinion and wish everyone here a happy ending with a positive result for all active shooters in this wonderful community!

 

[simpleton]

I sure appreciate all the hard work that has gone into this thread, ( especially by Lector). It has been very informative ( mostly from his end) and has really opened my eyes....

What is trying to be created here is an excellent thing for our shooting community, but I wouldn't start chattering about anything I was making until I had done all the homework that Lector has obviously done.

[/IMG]

 

[Satain]

I still like mine the best. Even though it was slightly off on the evaluation witch I corrected with a buffer plate. Everything that I did was not permanent and totally reversible. Plus it only cost about $20 in parts and about 4 hours to make!

 

[swift81]

Simple, have I affended you in any way? Am I not allowed to chime in a little bit and voice my opinion. Thanks again for your input it has been very helpful to me, and once again best wishes to everyone else Sorry if this newbie has disturbed anyone.