Rauch Tactical Multi Mount Rail a VZ58 / 858 scope mounting rail.
- Thread starter suprathepeg
- Start date
I was told by suprathepeg after I sent his friend a prototype that it was off by 5 degrees. It was sloped to the front so my uncle attached a buffer plate that locks in the front u shaped slot and also rases it the 5 degrees it was out. So now I can use my iron sight's and my scope. I fell like I have a cake and got to eat it too! Although I think suprathepeg design is a traditional and more stable platform and also Dr.Lector would probaly say that I am out to lunch!
Now don't take this as slagging your design cause its a pretty good effort and a lot of time and energy obviously went into it. The slope and the cant could be fixed by machining the part. The main reasons we decided not to produce it are that its not rigid enough and like adapting an AK mount to the VZ its too far back to comfortably mount magnified optics. If you mount it on your weapon and place the rifle in a vice you can twist the scope side to side with little effort. So every time you fire the scope is twisting on the mount. Its a good effort though and I comment the ammount of time and energy that goes into a design like that. If there was a way to secure the mount to another point of contact without driving the production cost up so high...
Of course the same issues with shell ejection exist etc etc.
Of course the same issues with shell ejection exist etc etc.
I was told by suprathepeg after I sent his friend a prototype that it was off by 5 degrees. It was sloped to the front so my uncle attached a buffer plate that locks in the front u shaped slot and also rases it the 5 degrees it was out. So now I can use my iron sight's and my scope. I fell like I have a cake and got to eat it too! Although I think suprathepeg design is a traditional and more stable platform and also Dr.Lector would probaly say that I am out to lunch!
No, I don't believe you are out to lunch.
Sorry if I made you nervous.
Today the high POSP/PSO mount arrived and I gotta say I'm really not impressed. This mount is quite a bit different then the low once I have already posted. The offset is different by .147" to the left or just over 1/8" so it in fact will not sit centered over the bot and it offset to the left by about 3/16". Honestly it looks like the QC on these mounts is not so much based on a standard as well I don't know. At this point I'm not sure I would recommend these mounts for any weapon where you cared about center over bore cause it seems you can't be sure what you're gonna get. The mount I got today is over 1/8" further to the left then the PK01 and the low mount which both center over the bore fine. I don't know if the one I got is a random divergence from the norm or if all the POSP/PSO mounts are like this.
Here you can see the offset.
Wow, if it DOES NOT center above the barrel, then I'm not impressed either.
I thought you said it will center over the bore.
IIRC I've read that in your post number 97:
If you recall, I tried to politely make you aware of this before.Actually it will center the Belomo mounts like these without a spacer:
But of course, you probably thought I was bullsh!tting...
And again
Well, too bad you didn't believe me
and you had to learn this the hard way....
I'm sorry, I used pictures posted by you.
When I requested MORE detailed pictures
that were correct and complete, you replied:
So, I think it's more than fair to believe that you considered
those pics as sufficient and the final and definitive versions of the rail.
Just to be clear the Belomo mounts such as the BP-02, MTK-52, PK-01, PK-23 and any other mount designed to center over the bore of an AK will center over the bore on the VZ58 with the MultiMount Rail. I completely admit that finding a wide variety of AKs and SVDs to measure is outside of our scope of capabilities being in Canada, but of the ones we were able to measure/get measurements from the offset of the MultiMount is within .5mm of the average. I can tell you that you will get the same offset results as most AKs and Dragunovs but with better eye relief options using the MultiMount Rail on the VZ58. Do not worry about the tolerances in Russian Mil-Spec offsets (which as far as I can tell vary by up to 1mm each way), in practical terms it does not exist.
Mounts and optics that do not conform to Russian Mil-Spec are a different story. To be clear and it took a lot of digging, the MTK-52 style mount which I posted that sits ~1/8" to the left is NOT MADE BY ZENIT-BELOMO (ZB), from what I can tell it and some other optics/mounts marketed as "Russian Mil-Spec" are made in China and marketed to and through Russia as far as I know Kalinka and otherwise decent retailer is selling these made in China mounts and optics. I obviously didn't know that and Kalinka is doing nothing to clarify this for their buyers so I bought one. Its pretty easy to tell a ZB made optic or mount from a Chinese knock off because as yet the made in China products are not marked with country of manufacture or company name (Belomo). They are really "no name brand products" and when held side by side with a real ZB made mount the quality difference is obvious. So far I can say that Eastwave, GoodOptics and Tantal sell true Russian Mil-Spec products at a variety of prices generally congruent to parallel to customer service. When you buy your mount or optic for the VZ-58 just be sure to ask if the product is marked "made in Belarus" and you should be safe. Just a note to this there are other "Eastern European" optics houses which make fantastic optics and mounts that will fit on the MultiMount Rail such as IOR, ZRAK, Meopta etc. These are however not nearly as easy to find as but the quality is generally better then the Russian/Belorussian made products, most considered to be on par with Zeiss, Swarovski, etc. I cannot find a retailer who will ship the UTG rail to Canada any longer as most are in the US, when I do I'll get one and show you all how it works. IIRC Lector has both a real ZB made BP-02 and UTG rail so he can tell us if the offset is the same.
I'm testing a variety of other mounts right now that are not made by Zenit-Belomo and will post the results. I'm also talking with ZB and a couple other manufacturers trying to bring in mounts and optics that will center over the bore, this is a seriously slow process and it will take some time. In the meantime I'll do my best to show a variety of optics and mounts and display their function on the MultiMount Rail. Another note for buyers, don't be put off by offset optics such as the POSP, PSO or offset mounts. Unless you feel you truly need a centered over the bore optic the offset ones are generally excellent choices. I'm an ambidextrous but dominantly southpaw shooter and shoot the offset optics as well as the centered ones. Steiner (right handed shooter) is using a left offset mount and is very happy with the results.
Now back to the BP-02 and MTK-52 mounts. On the VZ58 you cannot mount these more then ~1"-1.5" forward of the dust cover as they will enter the ejection pathway and cause a jamb this is generally true with whatever rail you mount to your VZ including the MultiMount Rail. They are shaped to compliment the dust covers of Dragunovs and AKs (which eject to the right) and the flat bottom of these mounts catches the shells on the VZ58. I have found that for 90% of shooters the best position for the mount when using magnified optics would put these mounts in the ejection pathway and obviously on the MultiMount interfere with the shell deflector. These mounts as I have said many times are good but only ideal for red dot optics on the VZ58. Of course YMMV and I'm sure you could rig up the mount so it works for you but I can guarantee you that there are better mounts for magnified optics on the VZ58 and the MultiMount Rail allows you to take advantage of them.
Here are some pictures from the net of real Zenit-Belomo BP-02, MTK-52 and some fakes, you can clearly see the markings and if you look closely you can see some differences.
BP-02
MTK-52
Fake:
So much as I hate to say it as always the buyer must be aware of what they are buying.
Mounts and optics that do not conform to Russian Mil-Spec are a different story. To be clear and it took a lot of digging, the MTK-52 style mount which I posted that sits ~1/8" to the left is NOT MADE BY ZENIT-BELOMO (ZB), from what I can tell it and some other optics/mounts marketed as "Russian Mil-Spec" are made in China and marketed to and through Russia as far as I know Kalinka and otherwise decent retailer is selling these made in China mounts and optics. I obviously didn't know that and Kalinka is doing nothing to clarify this for their buyers so I bought one. Its pretty easy to tell a ZB made optic or mount from a Chinese knock off because as yet the made in China products are not marked with country of manufacture or company name (Belomo). They are really "no name brand products" and when held side by side with a real ZB made mount the quality difference is obvious. So far I can say that Eastwave, GoodOptics and Tantal sell true Russian Mil-Spec products at a variety of prices generally congruent to parallel to customer service. When you buy your mount or optic for the VZ-58 just be sure to ask if the product is marked "made in Belarus" and you should be safe. Just a note to this there are other "Eastern European" optics houses which make fantastic optics and mounts that will fit on the MultiMount Rail such as IOR, ZRAK, Meopta etc. These are however not nearly as easy to find as but the quality is generally better then the Russian/Belorussian made products, most considered to be on par with Zeiss, Swarovski, etc. I cannot find a retailer who will ship the UTG rail to Canada any longer as most are in the US, when I do I'll get one and show you all how it works. IIRC Lector has both a real ZB made BP-02 and UTG rail so he can tell us if the offset is the same.
I'm testing a variety of other mounts right now that are not made by Zenit-Belomo and will post the results. I'm also talking with ZB and a couple other manufacturers trying to bring in mounts and optics that will center over the bore, this is a seriously slow process and it will take some time. In the meantime I'll do my best to show a variety of optics and mounts and display their function on the MultiMount Rail. Another note for buyers, don't be put off by offset optics such as the POSP, PSO or offset mounts. Unless you feel you truly need a centered over the bore optic the offset ones are generally excellent choices. I'm an ambidextrous but dominantly southpaw shooter and shoot the offset optics as well as the centered ones. Steiner (right handed shooter) is using a left offset mount and is very happy with the results.
Now back to the BP-02 and MTK-52 mounts. On the VZ58 you cannot mount these more then ~1"-1.5" forward of the dust cover as they will enter the ejection pathway and cause a jamb this is generally true with whatever rail you mount to your VZ including the MultiMount Rail. They are shaped to compliment the dust covers of Dragunovs and AKs (which eject to the right) and the flat bottom of these mounts catches the shells on the VZ58. I have found that for 90% of shooters the best position for the mount when using magnified optics would put these mounts in the ejection pathway and obviously on the MultiMount interfere with the shell deflector. These mounts as I have said many times are good but only ideal for red dot optics on the VZ58. Of course YMMV and I'm sure you could rig up the mount so it works for you but I can guarantee you that there are better mounts for magnified optics on the VZ58 and the MultiMount Rail allows you to take advantage of them.
Here are some pictures from the net of real Zenit-Belomo BP-02, MTK-52 and some fakes, you can clearly see the markings and if you look closely you can see some differences.
BP-02
MTK-52
Fake:
So much as I hate to say it as always the buyer must be aware of what they are buying.
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Do it, there are better mounts though depending on your optic choice, some I've already shown and some I will show as I get them. I'm working out a deal right how to bring in some mounts from other Eastern European countries that may work out very well, I'll post them up when this all falls into place.
Alright I finally got a "real" BP-02 mount again and took some pics to show how it fits and centers over the bore and some side shots showing height.
Here is the skinny on this mount:
The last picture essentially shows the ejection pathway of spend casings, imagine the shells coming straight up forward of the bolt carrier between 1200 and 0100 o'clock. If the optic sits forward of the weaver rail on this mount it will be impacted by shells which will eventually damage it and cause the odd jamb. This is as far as this mount will go forward on the MultiMount Rail and as far forward as you would ever want it to go. Also a shell deflector won't work with this mount, it changes the spin of the casing and will cause jamming.
It does offer the shooter the ability to see the irons rather well, but that height makes cheek weld even with an aftermarket stock on the high setting of our MultiHeight Adapter a bit rough. If you want to still see the irons and mount an optic on this mount I suggest you use a mini red dot such as the aimpoint micro or better yet a Burris Fastfire. Either way this mount is limited as I've said before. With the factory stock you will be using the tip of the chin weld shooting position.
Here is the skinny on this mount:
The last picture essentially shows the ejection pathway of spend casings, imagine the shells coming straight up forward of the bolt carrier between 1200 and 0100 o'clock. If the optic sits forward of the weaver rail on this mount it will be impacted by shells which will eventually damage it and cause the odd jamb. This is as far as this mount will go forward on the MultiMount Rail and as far forward as you would ever want it to go. Also a shell deflector won't work with this mount, it changes the spin of the casing and will cause jamming.
It does offer the shooter the ability to see the irons rather well, but that height makes cheek weld even with an aftermarket stock on the high setting of our MultiHeight Adapter a bit rough. If you want to still see the irons and mount an optic on this mount I suggest you use a mini red dot such as the aimpoint micro or better yet a Burris Fastfire. Either way this mount is limited as I've said before. With the factory stock you will be using the tip of the chin weld shooting position.
I got another mount to try on the rail. A few more are on the way, there are a lot of options out there and once I find what seems to be the ideal option I'll try to import a bunch to sell with the rail. Ignore the junk leapers scope, we just use it for mock ups.
This one is sold by Kalinka as the EST AK, SAIGA, VEPR Side Mount w/ Side Weaver Rail and 1" Rings, this info is a little misleading, it is made by the Tula factory in Russia.
Its a very good quality piece that is very solid with a relatively low profile on the side of the rifle. It has no sharp edges which is nice but is a bit heavy and it places the optic higher then on the other mounts I've tested (PK23 mount and the offset mount with integral 1" rings) it is designed to mount large bell optics on AKs. It does not quick detach but mounts very firm with a nice simple screw. Rings are 1" integral.
This one is sold by Kalinka as the EST AK, SAIGA, VEPR Side Mount w/ Side Weaver Rail and 1" Rings, this info is a little misleading, it is made by the Tula factory in Russia.
Its a very good quality piece that is very solid with a relatively low profile on the side of the rifle. It has no sharp edges which is nice but is a bit heavy and it places the optic higher then on the other mounts I've tested (PK23 mount and the offset mount with integral 1" rings) it is designed to mount large bell optics on AKs. It does not quick detach but mounts very firm with a nice simple screw. Rings are 1" integral.
man am i jonesing for this rail
my pk-01 mount finally arrived, all the way from sunny belarus
i had to mock it up with my bushnell 3200 10x40 and see how it looks, and i'm hooked.
don't mind the placement of the mount as i don't have the rail to align it to, and also ignore the blue sharpy in the third photo, its just propping the gun up.
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payday can't come soon enough so i can set aside the funds needed for this
my pk-01 mount finally arrived, all the way from sunny belarus
i had to mock it up with my bushnell 3200 10x40 and see how it looks, and i'm hooked.
don't mind the placement of the mount as i don't have the rail to align it to, and also ignore the blue sharpy in the third photo, its just propping the gun up.
payday can't come soon enough so i can set aside the funds needed for this
Don't worry the rails are coming. We have had some rather serious production issues and orders from all over the world that I'm now trying to fill. Ultimately this has required us to seek out a manufacturing partner which has taken up the bulk of my time over the last few weeks. The good news is I'm just now finalizing a manufacturing deal which will allow us to fill domestic and international orders.
Don't worry guys I'm working on it.
Don't worry guys I'm working on it.
jcoulson64
CGN Regular
- Location
- Somewhere in the Western Colonies
Would it be possible to manufacture an FAL style flash suppressor mated to the VZ threads? I imagine laying hands on old FAL ones to modify would be fairly difficult by this point.
On a side note, any progress on a left side charging handle system? That piqued my interest as well.
On a side note, any progress on a left side charging handle system? That piqued my interest as well.
is that scope actually mounted like that, or is a mock up?
is there a shell deflector there?
also, what is that little tube that sticks out of the bottom of the scope and seems to contact the bolt?
interesting.
Sorry for the late responses guys.
I'll post pics of the deflector when I finally get a production piece in my hands.
Left side charging is likely a no-go, I just don't see enough of a market. The main issue is the cost of the bolt carriers.
The flash hider is an interesting idea but for the few people that want them I'm sure you could find a C6 FH and have it tapped for less then I could produce one.
I'll post pics of the deflector when I finally get a production piece in my hands.
Left side charging is likely a no-go, I just don't see enough of a market. The main issue is the cost of the bolt carriers.
The flash hider is an interesting idea but for the few people that want them I'm sure you could find a C6 FH and have it tapped for less then I could produce one.
